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Author Topic:   Religion in Government
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 46 of 303 (111520)
05-29-2004 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 7:46 PM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
Now you are just making stuff up.
The Constitution is not the founding document of this country? The rules by which a president is elected are determined by something other than the Constitution? When the police arrest you, your right to a fair, speedy trial is based upon something other than the Sixth Amendment? That piece of parchment in Washington, DC is a hoax?
quote:
The constitution was written way after the first landing of which I speak of.
Indeed. But the landing of which you speak were of Britons. We're not talking about British colonies. We're talking about the founding of the United States. That happens with the ratification of the Constitution, not the landing on Plymouth Rock.
Don't you think that philosophical attitudes might have changed in the intervening 160 years?
quote:
The constitution was written by Christians with God in their hearts
Incorrect. The Constitution was written by Deists and Unitarians who had an extremely different view of what god is than you do. This was the Enlightenment where the dominant paradigm was the clockwork universe. God wound it up at the beginning and let it go, never to interfere directly again.
Personal web sites? CBN? Those are your sources?
quote:
quote:
Incorrect. It is because the founding fathers knew the perils of having religion and government intertwined that they specifically and deliberately wrote the Constitution to separate the two.
Not true
Have you read the Constitution?
The word "god" or any equivalent does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. The word "religion" or any of its equivalents appear exactly twice...both times to specifically remove its influence from governmental action:
Article VI:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but [I][B]no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.[/i][/b]
Amendment I:
[I][B]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion[/I][/b], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What do you think those passages mean?
quote:
Everywhere you look it is written:
ONE NATION UNDER GOD.
I wonder why?
Dwight D. Eisenhower.
It wasn't because of the founding fathers, that's for sure. The original national motto was "E Pluribus Unum." On July 4, 1776, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were appointed to come up with a seal for the US. On August 10, they returned a seal with "E Pluribus Unum" on it which was rejected. Other designs over the years were also rejected until Mr. Thomson, Secretary of Congress, was asked to complete the project. He came up with the current seal of the eagle with an olive branch and arrows in its talons and a scroll declaring "E Pluribus Unum" in its beak. It was approved on June 10, 1782, first used on September 16 of that same year, and first used on coins in 1795.
You will notice that that's still on the money, too.
During the Civil War, Rev. M.R. Watkinson asked Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase to come up with a religious motto to put on the coins. Chase asked Pollock, Director of the Mint, to come up with suitable wording and Pollock settled on "In God We Trust."
Congress then had to pass legislation since an 1837 Act of Congress had already established the text to appear on coins.
But the official use of "In God We Trust" as the national motto didn't occur until 1956 in the aftermath of the McCarthy witch hunts.
In fact, the insertion of god into governmental actions tended to happen right about then. "In God We Trust" became the national motto after nearly two hundred years of "E Pluribus Unum," "under god" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, and "so help me god" was added to oaths for federal judges.
So once again, the reason why you see "In God We Trust" is because of Eisenhower.
And do try to stop psychoanalysing me over the internet. You have never managed to get it right.
If you cannot respond to an argument calling the other person "foolish" and "emotional" is not a valid response.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 7:46 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Ediacaran
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 303 (111570)
05-30-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 11:07 AM


riVeRraT writes:
More specifically, mans belief in him, led them to go and find America and make it free. The people who discovered America, did not proclaim it in the name of freedom, they planted a cross on the beach when they landed, and proclaimed it in the name of God. The site still exists to this day.
Wow, Amerindians sailed to America and planted a cross - and you know the site? [sarcasm mode off]
The Amerindians were here long before Amerigo Vespucci, Columbus, or the Puritans. And the first known Europeans of record in the Americas were the Vikings, so your point is moot, unless the God you were referring to was Wotan.
As previously noted, the founding of the United States has to do with those who wrote the U.S. Constitution and related founding documents, and little if anything to do with the groups who came before. And you should recall from history (not the revisionist sort promulgated by the "Christian Nation" advocates such as Barton or Federer) that the Founders of the U.S. rebelled against a Christian Nation, and founded a secular one.
Read Jefferson's writings if you want a good refutation of the claim that the law is based on the bible; he even traces common law back to the Anglo-Saxon pagans. T.J.'s writings are available online [photocopies and transcriptions] at American Memory from the Library of Congress - Page Not Found
Jefferson (to Cartwright) writes:
The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed.
My apologies to colleagues from other countries - the focus on the history of the U.S. must get a little tedious. Perhaps we can discuss how New Zealand has fared with so many atheists at the helm, to get a broader perspective on the thread topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 11:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:26 PM Ediacaran has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 48 of 303 (111587)
05-30-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NosyNed
05-29-2004 8:24 PM


Re: Try a bit harder?
Its amazing that people would ever even dare to think that this country wasn't founded with God in mind.
All of our court rooms, and congress, and money has the words "In God we Trust".
Thats my point, that this country was founded by people who believed in God, and tried to follow his word.
Its the people today trying to twist that all around and say that it has nothing to do with our country that are screwed in the head. They should state their real reason for not wanting to have anything to do with God, rather than making up lies.
God has everything to do with this country whether you believe in him or not. To suggest that our president should not be allowed to have God on his heart because it would interfere with running the country is just so....(I don't even have a word for it.)
This topic is pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NosyNed, posted 05-29-2004 8:24 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 6:41 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 58 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2004 3:01 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 49 of 303 (111588)
05-30-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Ediacaran
05-30-2004 1:28 PM


Jefferson was the biggest christian of them all.
Those who framed our great Constitution acknowledged that, as God's creatures, we must hold the Federal government accountable to us, so that, as God's stewards, we can be accountable to Him.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 05-30-2004 04:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Ediacaran, posted 05-30-2004 1:28 PM Ediacaran has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 5:40 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 51 by Chiroptera, posted 05-30-2004 5:49 PM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 303 (111589)
05-30-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:26 PM


Actually, not quite.
Let's look at what he said about that.
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-82)
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that one is not three, and the three are not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and that would catch no more flies"
-Letter to John Adams, 1813
In fact, Mr. Jefferson if anything was anti-Christian.
You might be interested in checking a few of your historical facts since it really appears that your source has either beein lying to you or at the least, totally missleading.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:26 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 303 (111591)
05-30-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:26 PM


riVeRraT, do you even read the other posts on this thread? Both of your last two posts have already been refuted. Rrhain has already explained the history of the phrase "In God We Trust", and DBlevins has already quoted Jefferson's own words how this country was definately not founded to be Christian nation!
Did you know that Jefferson wrote a version of the Gospels that make no mention of miracles or the supernatural, or even the resurrection? Jefferson believed these to be tawdry superstitions that detracted from the true message of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:26 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 303 (111593)
05-30-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Rrhain
05-29-2004 11:09 PM


How can the constitution be written in the spirit of god if it violates the very first commandment of god?
Because God gave us the right to sin of we so choose.
They followed suit.
You really have no idea what slavery is, do you?
I think you don't. Not all slaves were slaves by force.
But most were. Some believed they had to be slaves to a particular group based on beliefs, and punishments from God. It was of their own thinking.
Just in case you are thinking that I think slavery is ok, its not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Rrhain, posted 05-29-2004 11:09 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 5:59 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 59 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2004 3:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 303 (111595)
05-30-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:54 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Some believed they had to be slaves to a particular group based on beliefs, and punishments from God. It was of their own thinking.
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Excuse me, are you saying that some people one day decided that they really rather be slaves???????????????

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:45 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 303 (111606)
05-30-2004 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:25 PM


Re: Try a bit harder?
riVeRraT writes:
All of our court rooms, and congress, and money has the words "In God we Trust".
Do you have any idea of how or when "In God We Trust" was added to our money?
Do you really not know when and how "Under God" got added to the Pledge?
Do you really think those were contributions of the Founding Fathers?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:25 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 55 of 303 (111610)
05-30-2004 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
05-30-2004 5:59 PM


No, that being a slave was a step up from what they had.
If there was a choice to be a slave or die from starvation.
Also a belief in God, could lead you to become a slave based on a punishment. Not by force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 5:59 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2004 3:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 56 of 303 (111644)
05-30-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JCPalmer
05-28-2004 9:17 PM


As a Christian, I agree with Eugene Peterson. All religion is evil. It is driven both by fear and by a mysterious void in the human soul that must draw in purpose and guiding doctrines. Without such things the only question left to answer is, "To be or not to be."
Of course I am not classifying Christianity as a religion in that statement. Many have tried to make it one, but in doing so have rejected its very foundational principles. Satan operates under the guise of religion to attempt to destroy Christians, Jews, and truth. (Can you logically explain the world's present and historical hatred and persecution of Jews and Christians or fierce debate over truth?)
More specifically to your question, "Should religion be allowed/tolerated in the Governmental and Political process?", yes and no. The majority of founders of this nation were Christians and intended for this nation's people and government to be guided by Christian moral principles. One of those principles was religious freedom and self-determination. The combination of Christian moral principles with vast freedoms is as close to a perfect government one could hope for. This freedom also allows us to reject God and his principles as this nation is gradually doing.
In the 4th century A.D., I believe, Constantine tried to force Christianity on Rome mandating that everyone believe in Christ and the consequences were disastrous. Eventually, the pope gained corrupting political power and Christian doctrines were destroyed resulting in removal of freedoms (even the freedom to read the Bible), persecutions, crusades, and other atrocities. The Catholic church still suffers from this addition of "religion" to the faith.
Moral principles, however, can never be divorced from God's authority. Without the authority of God's word, our principles are subject to our own subjective determination. Anarchy quickly followed by tyranny is the inevitable result (as proven by history).
Although there's certainly nothing wrong or unconstitutional about Christian men seeking God's guidance in our government, or including references to God or his ten commandments in our government or public schools, in fact our founding fathers encouraged it and hoped for its continuity, if a majority of people in America now decide to remove God or simply do not care, there are only the fading voices of wisdom from the our forefathers left to discourage it. It is up to the people to either vote God in or vote God out of our Government.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JCPalmer, posted 05-28-2004 9:17 PM JCPalmer has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 303 (111711)
05-31-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hangdawg13
05-30-2004 9:36 PM


Of course I am not classifying Christianity as a religion in that statement. Many have tried to make it one, but in doing so have rejected its very foundational principles.
Oh really?
Do you, as a part of Christianity:
1) Believe in supernatural entities, including god(s)?
2) Attend services at a house of worship?
3) Tithe or make other donations to your organization of believers?
4) Pray?
5) Observe significant holy days?
6) Read a book of devotions, scripture, or other holy texts?
If you answered "yes" to any of the above, congratulations! You're a member of a religion.
Just so we're clear:
quote:
Re*li*gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
from No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religion&x=9&y=10
You don't believe that Christianity is "the worship or service of God"? You don't believe that it's "a system of beliefs held to with ardor or faith"?
Christians love to play this game, I know - my old church sure did - but it's obvious that Christianity is religion by any common definition of "religion." To try to style it as something else is a ridiculous attempt to redefine a word.
Re: the rest of your post, I think it's a mistake to pretend that anyone can just speak for the Founding Fathers as though they were unanimous on any subject. Of course they weren't. Some of the framers intended for the country to be run on strictly Christian moral principles. Some framers rejected those principles even in their own personal conduct. Some framers couldn't make up their mind.
The framers were a big group, with a diversity of opinion on every concievable issue. It's a mistake to say "the framers intended this" or "the framers intended that" because the framers intended a lot of things, some of them mutally contradictory. Only someone of great naiveite would suggest that the thoughts of such a diverse group could be summed up in a sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-30-2004 9:36 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 3:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 58 of 303 (111716)
05-31-2004 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:25 PM


Re: Try a bit harder?
riVeRraT writes:
quote:
All of our court rooms, and congress, and money has the words "In God we Trust".
None of that happened until 1956 when the Eisenhower administration and Congress made "In God We Trust" the national motto.
Are you saying this country was founded in 1956?
The original motto of this country, as I so painstakingly detailed for you, was "E Pluribus Unum." 1797.
quote:
Thats my point, that this country was founded by people who believed in God, and tried to follow his word.
But they didn't believe in your god.
Did you know that Jefferson rewrote the Bible? He took out all the references to supernatural activity on the part of Jesus since he considered them ridiculous. Jesus was not the son of god but was simply a human being with a good philosophy.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:25 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 59 of 303 (111717)
05-31-2004 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:54 PM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
quote:
How can the constitution be written in the spirit of god if it violates the very first commandment of god?
Because God gave us the right to sin of we so choose.
That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it actually agrees with my point.
If the Constitution was written in sin, then it wasn't written in the spirit of god.
quote:
Not all slaves were slaves by force.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
Are you seriously comparing indentured servitude to slavery?
quote:
Some believed they had to be slaves to a particular group based on beliefs, and punishments from God.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
Are you seriously saying that some of the black people in Africa willingly and deliberately decided to be packed in like sardines in order to become objects?
You really have no idea what slavery is, do you?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2004 12:22 PM Rrhain has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 60 of 303 (111718)
05-31-2004 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 6:45 PM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
If there was a choice to be a slave or die from starvation.
And what African was ever presented with that choice?
You really have no idea what slavery is, do you?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2004 12:23 PM Rrhain has replied

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