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Author | Topic: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO | |||||||||||||||||||||
Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
quote: These Shepard Kings were children of Jacob who went down to Egypt to escape the famine. They were children of Judah/Zarah(ites)(Genesis 38). When a pharoah "who knew not Joseph" came to power, these ruling Shepard Kings/Zarahites fled by ships leaving their brethern to face slavery. As is the case when power is overthrown - the rulers escape and the masses remain.
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N-lighter Inactive Member |
Just curious, I haven't seen the "Exodus Revealed"...but I probably will. My curiousity lies in the significance of a "proposed substantiation--not proof of the particular details of an exodus which can not be denied--other than in the details. Regardless, any good "thinker" can counter loosely strung circumstances with an also acceptable explanation. Why is this important?...does anyone debate the historical reality of an exodus?...I think not. What is debated over and over in this forum and elsewhere is the sensibility(credibility) of biblical text in modern times. It does not take a scientist to realize the Bible is-- at best--a mediocre history book and clearly not the word of a "deity". The facts of its origination alone correspond to the development of our own constitution. A bunch of leaders got together and wrote a "one for all" document/book to be placed in all the RC churches. However, in both cases...the basic flaw still exists...humans will never completely agree as to whatis right or wrong for everyone.I was saved at age five but figured that out by age ten, too!
Sorry, no true answers on this one.
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
I think your point is very pertinent, and fits in perfectly with what the early 'biblical archaeologists' were doing, i.e. not examining the artefacts on their own or in the context of the find, they all automatically got their Bible's out and just jumped to conclusions.
I also think that aetiologies played a very big part in the writing of the Bible. I think the Israelites claimed a victory at Jericho that had nothing to do with them, they also made a huge error in claiming a victory at Ai just after Jericho as archaeology shows they were never occupied at the same time. Brian. Buz and WT, I will reply tomorrow, thanks for hangin on. This message has been edited by Brian, 05-31-2004 04:39 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, actually yes, the very fact of an Exodus is in question. Certainly, an Exodus of anything like the magnitude described in the Bible is very, very unlikely.
While it might be reasonable for a group of people, perhaps even one numbering in the thousands of individuals, to have abandoned Egypt and gone off looking for newer lands, there doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence for anything like what is described in Exodus. There is no mention of it in the Egyptian annals, and they were very good record keepers. There is no evidence showing the area of the wilderness that was supposedly occupied had any settlements, there is little or no supporting evidence of the invasions or battles recounted. Of the various parts of the Bible seen as historical, I would say that the Exodus is one of the least supported. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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N-lighter Inactive Member |
"Magnitude"...as described in Exodus? Again, the Bible can be described as a mediocre historical text...perhaps because recording history was not the main intention of its design. It's like trying to find historical details in the US military charter and policies documents. Not much there!
As for Egypt or any other culture tracking (noting) that a load of folks moved out...why would they? Their movement left a lot of property and opportunity for those who remained. This would be like trying to find specific details in Israel of the several hundred thousand Palestinians (who left Israel in the 70's) and are still living, as refugees, in 30+ year old tents in Lebanon today. I guarantee--- you will be hard pressed to find details on that event in Israeli documentation of the times. The region (historically) is steeped in slanting most events to suit the needs and goals of those in power. (Sunni vs. Shiite- Phalangist's vs. Christian--etc.)It's hard to give creedence to the "details" of the exodus, but certainly we should accept that a fairly large group of people left Egypt at a point in time. Enough such-- that it was worth writing about. Movement of oppressed/conguered peoples is nothing new...it happens over and over again. Even if we were to accept the Exodus as written, the other inconsistencies throughout the Bible render it's text largely as story telling being passed, like Indian lore, from one generation to another. However, I doubt we'll see convincing proof in our lifetime that the majority of things in the Bible are historically true.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, if as you say,
Their movement left a lot of property and opportunity for those who remained. you would think that there might be a few "Big Opportunity in lightly used real estate" or "Get your land now while the market is depressed" or "Buyers Market in used homes" announcements. The Biblical account of the Exodus seems to indicate that a very large number of people were involved. It looks like something on the order of 10-20% of the population up and left. Now that is the kind of thing that might make news even in a small town newspaper. But when you add in the fact that the whole army got wiped out, not heavy casualities like Normandy but more on the order of Napolean's Retreat from Moscow, then it moves from page nine of the Times Picayune up to front page Wall Street Journal. In addition, events like Napolean's Retreat from Moscow have other effects on the society in general. There would have been succession issues, heads would have rolled, very definitely blame would have been assigned and certainly made public. Other nations in the area would have noticed what had happened and if possible, taken advantage of an opportunity to whup up on a nation that just lost its whole army and staff. But there is no evidence that any of that happened. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5211 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Unbelievable. I must commend Buzsaw for doing a marvelous job at defending the Aqaba evidence. Brian and PaulK are squealing for grounds to stand on, and it just isn't working. The ‘big picture’ is just too overwhelming.
quote: As for dating everything on a global basis, I am no expert. But The Exodus Case (book) does a marvelous job at explaining the uncertainties of dating civilizations: I feel confident enough to address this point and tell you right out that non-Christian scientists have severely erred in their dating methods of ancient civilizations. First off, I'm going to use the Egyptians and Joseph as an example: By calculating the time in Egypt with the help of indications found in the books of Genesis and Exodus, and the fact that Joseph was 30 years old when he was appointed ruler in Egypt, the life of Joseph can be dated around 1745-1635 BC. The measure of uncertainty regarding this date can be in the order of 10-30 years. In the last 2000 years the measure of uncertainty is around 4 years (our modern era after the birth of Jesus), and there are uncertainties in the above calculation, e.g. when a sovereign dies in the second year of his reign, does this mean after 13 months or after 24 months? This type of uncertainty can generally be corrected, but when it is a matter of a number of steps in the calculation then one should add a decade or two to allow for the factor of uncertainty. The books of the Bible together with other historical sources (concerning Nebuchadnezzar’s entry into Jerusalem) give us the basis for a relatively well-founded time-axis. Considering that this spans almost 1800 years plus 2000 years of our modern era, in all almost 4000 years, one must realize that these are very precise estimates. So what can we say about the points in time which are given regarding the history of Egypt? To put it simply, the basic material is very difficult to use for exact estimations. There are several reasons for this: 1. It is not all clear it is not all clear how many people have actually been rulers in Egypt. When several names occur, it could mean that there are a number of different people, or several people who are given different titles in different contexts, or they could refer to one and the same person. As it can be seen from the example of the Swedish royal family and all the names which can be used, uncertainties easily arise. We also know that the Egyptian rulers had many titles. One example is given: and I asked him who was the Chamberlain the Ibis, the Chief Lector Priest Imhotep, the son of Ptah In this example four different names for one person have been used at the same time. Another example is Tutankhamun, who had at lest five different names: Tutankhamun, Nebkheprure, Renpkhau sehetepnetjeru, Neferhepu, segerhtawy and Kanakht tutmes. The knowledge we have of the names and titles of each ruler, his family and ministers, during the several thousand years, leave room for a great deal of uncertainty. 2. In one inscription seals have been preserved as a sort of Egyptian royal line. It should be noted that the inscription is not complete (it is damaged), and it may be that several seals belong to the same person. It is natural to assume that a person changes his seal as he moves on from being the heir to the throne to join ruler with the pharaoh, and later becomes Pharaoh. It is not unlikely that several people, other than the sovereign, are named in this type of tabulation e.g. the monarch and the heir to the throne. Altogether this gives rise to a great deal of uncertainty in establishing dates. It should be noted that the joint ruler, before taking over as Pharaoh in Thebes, was Pharaoh in Memphis. In other words, there could be two pharaohs in office at the same time, one being superior (Thebes) to the other (Memphis). Several texts speak of Egyptian leaders in the plural, Egyptian kings. One example is the bible text of Jeremiah (Jer. 46.25). 3. The language is a further difficulty, partly because it is based on symbols and not on letters in the ordinary sense, and partly because it is a dead language. This leads to problems of interpretation and understanding. There is an inscription with the same text in two different languages(with two varieties of hieroglyphs) which is fundamental for an understanding of the Egyptian hieroglyphs, the so-called Rosetta stone. It should be noted that the only or two of all the pharaonic seals are included in this inscription. 4. The main source of information regarding the history of Egypt is found in the graves of the pharaohs. With only a few exceptions all these graves have been plundered. This means that certain information is brought to the fore because more is known about that particular example, while there are long periods of time about which there is little knowledge. Tutankamun has been brought to the fore very markedly, and his beautiful and valuable death mask (in gold and the semi-precious stone turquoise) has become a modern symbol for Egypt. The reason for this is that Tutankamun’s grave was one of the few that had not been plundered, and therefore contained all the valuable objecrts of gold. In addition, everything else that a royal personage would take with him on his journey of death was intact. On the other hand, the degree of magnificence with which Tutankamun was surrounded is surprising in view of the fact that he was only around 18 years old when he died. The importance accorded him today is due not to his political significance, his long reign, the knowledge of him as a great leader in history or anything of this nature, but to the fact that his death mask and other items in the untouched grave were so magnificent and had not been stolen (approximately 700 objects were found in the grave). The next question one can ask oneself is if this was the rule for all royal burials or only for Tutankhamun, since there is so little with which to compare it as most other graves have been plundered. 5. In ancient times Egypt was divided into upper (southern) and lower (northern) Egypt, upper and lower respectively were in relation to the river Nile. These two regions had their own pharaohs, but during certain periods of time the land was united. During other periods the Nile delta had its own pharaoh or king. Combined with the lack of knowledge concerning certain periods, this makes dating very uncertain. If one calculates dates for Norway and Sweden during the last two centuries based solely on the lines of kings, one meets problems for two reasons. For one thing, the king of Norway was in exile during the second world war (which the Swedish king was not), but above all Sweden and Norway formed a union during the period 1814 to 1905, when the king of Sweden was also king of Norway. After a long period of time, and with very limited information factors such as these can lead to great uncertainty in calculating dates. 7. Pharaohs who fell from grace, or in other ways did not fit in, have been removed from various inscriptions listing cartouches (royal seals) from different pharaohs. It is common to find notes in the literature on how certain statues, inscriptions etc. were systematically destroyed by rulers in Egypt. This falsification of ancient history naturally makes things very difficult, when it is a matter of obtaining a clear picture of different eras up to 5000 years ago. 8. There are several different opinions about epochs in time and chronologies with regard to Egypt’s pharaohs. This in itself indicates that the chronologies contain uncertainties. 9. One example of uncertainty is mentioned when discussing how long Pharaoh Djoser reigned. Djoser is regarded to have reigned for 19 years. At the same time the Step Pyramid in Sakkara (Djosers mausoleum) was constructed and built by Imhotep. Probably Imhotep attained his position a number of years after Djoser had attained to his position, so the actual time for construction, organization, and building of this extremely large edifice was perhaps only 10 years. In one comment surprise expressed that the first pyramid could be built in only 19 years, but the question as to whether the dating is completely correct is not raised. Nor is the method indicated by which the date was determined. Djoser is said to have several names; Djoser, Zoser, Netjeri-khet and Tosorthos, which can also create uncertainty. Nonetheless, the exact period of Djosers reign is given to the year (2668-2649 BC) in spite of the fact that there are only a few references to Djoser, and that it concerns events of approximately 4600 years ago, according to Egyptian chronology. 10. A further aspect of the uncertainty involved in calculating the dates of the early Egyptian dynasties is presented in E.A. Wallis Budge’s book (most recent revision 1989. The following passage is found in this book: The dates that he and others have assigned to the first dynasty depend upon the numbers of the years that they have assigned to these two intervals. But these dates — Lepsius BC 3892, Lieblein BC 3893, Brugsch BC 4455 or 4400, Meyer BC 3315, Breasted BC 3400, Hall BC 3500 — are only indexes to the opinions of those who propose them, and it is quite possible that every one of them is wrong in point of actual fact. The material for fixing with certainty the date of the first dynasty does not exist at present. The span of time indicated for this point in Egyptian history varies considerably between the authors mentioned, 1140 years to be prices. Wallis’ book gives several examples of extensive differences in estimated dates and mentions that the Egyptians did not keep their own chronologies in the way that we do, and therefore generally speaking it is difficult to draw specific conclusions about dates and periods of time. The reign of Pharaoh Djoser was during the third dynasty. There is a great deal of uncertainty about the dating because of the reasons given above, and therefore it is difficult to compare them with the comparatively exact time-axis which the biblical texts set up. It should then be more important to relate events to each other, and this also gives a greater degree of certainty when the older Egyptian dynasties are discussed. For example, it may be that dating done with the help of constellations of stars (discussed earlier) could change the Egyptian time-axes with around 1000 years, depending on which constellation cycle one chooses. There is a much greater degree of precision in the statement that the events regarding seven years of famine occurred during the r3eign of Djoser, when Imhotep was the second man in the realm of Egypt, and that this period of famine was connected with a sort of contract agreement with God. The answer to the question whether Imhotep and Joseph were alive during the same period of time (in other words were the same person), cannot be given on the basis of calculations of the exact years because of the lack of Egyptian time-axes which, in a way that inspires confidence can indicate the dates of the older Egyptian dynasties. On the other hand, events during the reign of pharaoh Djoser show a remarkable number of similarities with descriptions in the Bible (in the books of Genesis and exodus), similarities which do not exist with other pharaohs. (sources: The Exodus Case by Lennart Moller) To sum it up, the scientists which are providing your information regarding dates are either lying to you, or do a great job at deceiving themselves. Don’t even use the dating argument anymoreevolution scientists will forever continue to delude the people into thinking that ancient civilizations are older than they really are, and sadly, many of you are in that bunch.
quote: There is a strong current in the Gulf of Aqaba, and we are lucky to find the remains that we do. It is only logical to conclude that of all the chariots and horses buried, few remains exist. The larger portion of remains were most likely buried under the sand or swept off the edge of the underwater landbridge. It would require equipment (that of what was used for the Titanic) to go to these depthsin which one day we hope to do. ~Lysimachus
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N-lighter Inactive Member |
In much more formal terms you have re-iterated the foundational reasons for not taking the Bible and other so called "ancient" writings as a literal and credible text. I applaud you. As Jar put it-if we take the Bible literally--the Exodus would have been noticed by others. That leaves me with only this assumption. What better way to impress your followers than to include (in your book of doctrines) a story as impressive as the Exodus? The reality may have been only a small group of people (albeit--everyone to them) and only a small group of soldiers (but it seemed like the whole army). Sure--let's expand the whole STORY to increase it's importance for those we wish to accept what we're saying. Who needs proof---? No one at that point in the history of the world. Today, however--proof is becoming more and more a necessity concerning events regarded as true according to a belief system. For those that continue to accept the Bible as literal truth, I am amazed...but I do see how it serves their purpose. If that purpose fades away it would be another story in itself...the EXODUS of of the modern day churches. Somewhere in time, perhaps this too will become an impressive story in which the details can be debated.
This message has been edited by N-lighter, 06-01-2004 09:09 AM This message has been edited by N-lighter, 06-01-2004 09:10 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
To sum it up, the scientists which are providing your information regarding dates are either lying to you, or do a great job at deceiving themselves. Yet another unfounded assertion within a litany of absurdities. If you have proof of that, please present it in the appropriate forum. Sorry, but so far you have offered absolutely no evidence that the "Exodus Revealed" video or the equally silly "Exodus Case" are anything more than yet another way to take money from the gullible and needy. They do not even have the credibility of selling indulgences. Sad, very sad. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:Another ironic statement coming from someone who feels 99% confident of the discoveries by Ron Wyatt.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4979 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Buz,
I am short of time so here is a quick outline of sources for Tuthmosis III's Palestinian campaigns. The ‘Annals of Tuthmosis III’ at Karnak are derived from a ‘day-book’ which was a type of diary that focussed on the pharaoh’s daily movements (armies had day-bboks as well to record saily actions). The annals at Karnak are too voluminous to type out here, they list conquered lands, tributes paid, plunder such as gold, silver, chariots, goats, sheep, male and female servants, the lists are very comprehensive. So maybe you could do a websearch for ‘Annals of Tuthmosis III’ or they are reproduced in Donald Redford’s The Wars in Syria and Palestine of Tuthmosis III 2003, Brill, Leiden pp 1-43. If you are having difficulty accessing the annals, I can type them up if you could wait a couple of days after you request it. Here are some more inscriptions relating to Tuthmosis III victories in Syria/Palestine, if you want to discuss any of these in more detail just let me know, I have the full-texts but you may be able to get them on-line. A great deal of Tuthmosis III campaigns are recorded on the walls at Karnak, there is a record here of the capture of over 300 cities. These inscriptions also refer to Tuthmosis III’s Syria-Palestinian campaigns. The Ermant Stele. Buhen Temple Text. The Buto Stela Inscription The Gebel Barkal Stele. Pylons 6 and 7 at Karnak itineraries of Tuthmosis III into Palestine. The Barque Shrine. Philadelphia 39-12-3 There are inscriptions at Tuthmosis III’s temple in Elephantine detailing his first campaign in Palestine. The following are references in official and private statements: The royal barber Si-Bast The Butler Neferperet The Soldier and Lieutenant-General, Amun-em-heb Construction Engineer Minmose. The Keeper of the Seal and Superintendent of the Gold Lands of Amnu, Sen-nufer. The Great Whmw of the King Antef. You may also wish to do a 'Google' for the Battle of Megiddo, and the Battle of Kadesh. Brian.
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5211 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Buzsaw,
quote: Just wanted to point out something there Buz. In Moller's book, "The Exodus Case", he highly acknowledges Wyatt, and accredits him to finding all (or at least most) of the discoveries mentioned in the book. In fact, he speaks very highly of him in the book. So I'm not sure where you are deriving this from. Have you read any of the book? ~Lysimachus
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5211 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
I might also add, buzsaw, "The Exodus Revealed" video and the three hour series "The Exodus Case" videos are completely different videos. Moller made his own series.
I spoke to Andrew Jones (one of the guys who were part of Ron's team) and said that you are wrong in saying that those are "clips" from the Exodus Revealed video. These are different: Mahoney Media – Page not found This three hour series follows a scientific and forensic investigation into the alleged events found in the Book of Exodus which chronicles the exodus of Moses and the early Hebrews out of Egypt. The series will include three, one hour programs including Joseph, The Interpreter of Dreams; Moses, Prince of Egypt, Prophet of God; and The Red Sea Crossing. WOW, I HAVE GOT TO GET THESE VIDEOS TOO! LOOOOOOK AT THE CLIIIIPPPPS! This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 06-01-2004 09:34 PM ~Lysimachus
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5211 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Hmm...they do not seem to be available in video yet. They are designed for television, but no indication if they are purchasable. Anyone know if you can purchase this 3 hour series online anywhere on video?
Thanks. ~Lysimachus
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Just wanted to point out something there Buz. In Moller's book, "The Exodus Case", he highly acknowledges Wyatt, and accredits him to finding all (or at least most) of the discoveries mentioned in the book. In fact, he speaks very highly of him in the book. So I'm not sure where you are deriving this from. Have you read any of the book? My comments which you pasted were pertaining to The Morrises of ICR and not to Moller. I've never made any statements as to whether Moller did or did not endorse Wyatt. I believe I said something about Wyatt being the original discoverer of this crossing site. I don't think Moller has any association with ICR. Correct me if I'm mistaken here.
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