Death of a Scotsman (Re: the "no true Scotsman" fallacy)

But your quotes don't support your assertion, rather they actually refute it.Do you believe that for us and our salvation Jesus became man?Do you believe that Jesus was a full and sufficient propitiation for our sins?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How so? Yep and yep.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-18-2006 05:45 PM

I never thought of Christianity as a progressivist philosophy.Does this mean that a ture Christian just keeps getting better, every day in every way? There are no slip-ups or backslides?If that's the criterion, your ranks are thinning rapidly, and there aren't enough true Christians in the world to matter.

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Okay, if you agree with those two statements, then you are agreeing that Christians can behave poorly, they can sin.So Christians can and do behave badly. Christians have, and continue to do really terrible things.There is a difference between salvation and Christianity. To claim that those who do terrible things simply aren't Christians is a cop out, and hurts any chance of ever seeing Christianity become Christ-like.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yep. No slip-ups. But if you do slip-up, you repent, and keep on progressing. Well, that's what tribulation is for: to separate the wheat from the chaff... to take the leaven out of the bread... to draw the true followers out into dependance on God and the Judas's out to be revealed as the sons of perdition.Many times in the Old Testament there were only a handful of people who truly followed God: Noah, Lot, Caleb and Joshua, the prophets. Its pretty clear that God likes to make his noble vessles the rarest kind. Its always "the remnant" not the majority.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-19-2006 02:52 AM

I think you're missing the point I'm making.If you are born again, you are spotless. You have been washed. Your sinful fleshly nature died with Christ. It is no longer you who live, but Christ living in you. You are a new creation. The old self has passed away. You are being transformed by the renewing of your mind into the image of Christ. No one who has been born of God continues to sin. Christ said, "Be ye perfect," and you let him make you perfect. You don't sin anymore, never again.... BUT... IF YOU DO SIN, you repent and turn back to God.If you don't repent, yet continue to call yourself a Christian (as many people do), you are a hypocrite, and Jesus will turn you away as an evildoer. And if Jesus turns you away, I'd say that's a pretty strong indication you are not a true Christian. Let's look at this one: Okay, here we have some Christian people who are doing wrong. What does Paul say about it? He says, don't deceive yourselves, you won't inherit the kingdom of God if you keep it up. And then he reminds them that they WERE all those things, but NOT ANYMORE only IF they continue in the faith and hope of the gospel.The key here is "WERE". They WERE sinners, but not anymore. He is encouraging them to quit sinning by reminding them that they are no longer sinners. Being a sinner and being a Christian are mutually exclusive states. "A man cannot serve two masters." He will either be mastered by his flesh or by God's Spirit. The first step to being mastered by God's Spirit is accepting by faith that your fleshly sinful nature is dead. But yet your flesh lives! Its a paradox. You died with Christ and you sacrifice fleshly self daily. You keep believing it until it is made manifest. And if you believe it you WILL be transformed.If a Christian brother falls into sin, we don't tell him he's not a Christian, we remind him of the hope that he's not a sinner, but he must repent to remain under the covenant of Christ's love and grace. If he doesn't repent, yet continues to call himself a Christian, he is a liar and a hypocrite like the Pharisees and not the child of Abraham he claims to be.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-19-2006 02:47 AM

Yadda yadda yadda.Then you go on to say... So we can throw out all the stuff about Christians not sinning. They do.QEDNext you pull up some Paul as though it supported your position. Let's look at what YOU say about the passage. You won't inherit the kingdom of God.Yup, likely.But does that say anything about how they're not Christians? No. Only that they may not be saved. See, once again you support my position. I'm simply pointing out that Christianity has sinned. It has been violent, intolerant and oppressive. It needs to change its ways.Christianity needs to repent of its ways. There is a rite that covers that. It's called Confession.The steps involved first requires an admission of sins, and acknowledgement that you really did those things, a desire to change, and an attempt to behave better in the future.When people look at past events and toss out the bad, allege that "they were not real Christians", then all that's happening is Christianity saying "Those sins weren't really mine so I don't have to repent".It's a denial of reality. A cop out. The easy way.When Paul chastized the Corinthians he is not saying that they are not Christians any more, he is saying their behavior is wrong and needs to be changed.Well, a lot of time has passed since then. Christianity has screwed up on many, many occassions. And it is still screwed up today. It is intolerant and oppressive.In another thread I discuss the barbarity of Christianity (not my title, but rather one chosen by Faith). It began as a spin-off when Faith made a statement about Islam and I objected. I responded with a short list of a few barbarous acts that were done by Christianity.

• when the conquistadors arrived in South America they burned all of the religious tracts they found and outlawed the practice of any religion except Christianity.
• North American Indian children were forced from their homes, their clothing changed, hair cut, language forbidden and the Christian religion forced upon them.
• Jews were expelled from England in 1290 under the Edict of Expulsion. They were barred from the Isles until the mid 1600s.
• in the 1400s all Jews were expelled from Spain. Interestingly, it was the Islamic world that opened its arms to them, even sending fleets of ships to take them back to the Islamic world and providing them with homes and opportunity.
• Jews were required throughout Europe to live in Ghettos, and were restricted in what positions or emplyment they could hold.
• throughout the Christian World, witches were killed, usually through burning.
• as far back as 1215, the Fourth Council of the Lateran required that Jews wear identifying marks or clothes.
• the Crusades which were attempts to redirect internal violence towards a non-aggressive outside neighbor.
• a continuing practice of outlawing other religions such as the banning of the old ways that happened in Hawaii.
• the Wars of the Reformation including the Peasants War which began in 1524 and on through the Thirty Years War.
• the four Great Inquistions beginning with the Middle Ages Inquisition of 1184.

I pointed out that Christianity continues today to be intolerant, for example Faiths quote about Islam. It is also oppressive, supporting denying human rights to homosexuals.I ended the message with the Confession. The first step Confession is to acknowledge what you've done wrong. As long as Christians continue to deny that they have done wrong, by simply denying that the Evil done in God's name was actually done by Christians, Christianity will remain indicted by GOD. Edited to fix spelling, changed Do to So.This message has been edited by jar, 02-19-2006 09:44 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Thanks for your reply. It's not "yadda yadda yadda." Its the meat of the matter. Faith means that you believe God's promises are true until they are manifested. If you believe that you are a sinner, that is what you will remain. If you believe you have been purified, you will be transformed into the image of Christ. If you say that you have been purified, but go on to willfully commit sin, you are a liar, not a Christian, and the truth is not in you. If you miss this point about faith, you miss the whole point of Christianity.Christ did not die so that we could go on living in sin waiting for the day we die so that we may at last be purified by the death of the flesh. By faith we put to death the flesh every day, so that the kingdom of heaven reigns in us in the here and now. Eternal life begins today... not when you die. To be a Christian is to be free from sin. Period. This is not possible for a human. But all things are possible with God. "Be it done to you according to your faith." ALL Christians get saved. Not everyone who calls himself a Christian gets saved. Ideas can't sin. Christianity can't sin. Only people can sin. People have perverted Christian teachings into something else by adhering to doctrines and traditions of men just like the Pharisees did to Judaism. And what did Jesus say to the Pharisees who were descended from Abraham? "IF you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did... If God were your father, you would love me... You belong to your father the devil."The Pharisees were born Israelites, but Jesus says they aren't Israelites because they don't do what's right. The same applies to Christians. How can a set of beliefs or ideas repent? So you think I should repent for what Hitler did? That's completely absurd. Well, fine. I'll take the easy way out. Why should I have to feel guilty for atrocities committed by people who perverted Christianity into something that no longer bore any resemblance to Christianity. If Christ doesn't call them his brothers, then they aren't my brothers either. Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." How can an idea or a belief screw up? People are intolerant and oppressive. Just like the Pharisees were. And if Jesus were here, he would say the same thing to them that he said to the Pharisees, "You are not Sons of God, but sons of your father the Devil!" He didn't say that the law, the prophets, and judaism had screwed up. He said the Pharisees had screwed up because they followed doctrines and traditions of men instead of the law and prophets. Neither Christianity nor Islam can commit "barbarous acts", only people can.Now after studying the teachings of Christ, do you really believe that any of these barbarous acts were done in obedience to any of Christ's commands? To be a Christian is to have God as your father. To have God as your father is to love Christ. To Love Christ is to obey his commands chiefly to love one another. Therefore these were not "Christian" acts but devilish acts. People continue to be intolerant as they always have. Some more than others. Whether or not the religion they profess is the source of such ideas depends on what the religions's original texts say. We look at the origins of a religion to determine if the present manifestation of that religion is the true thing or a perversion of it. I haven't studied Islam enough to make a case as to whether or not the acts committed in the name of Islam today are true to Islam or a perversion of it. But I have studied Christianity well enough to know when things are a perversion of it and not the real deal.

Yes it is yadda, yadda, yadda. It is nothing but rhetoric and feel good bs. Sorry but that just sounds like another cop out.Christianity is a collection of people supposedly following a set of rules, and often looking at guidence to the particular collection of stories included in which ever canon makes up their Bible.If you look at every single example I showed, the driving force was their interpretation of the Bible. Today's Christians, the ones that call Islam Barbaric, the ones that oppress the homosexuals, believe they are doing what the Bible demands.They are Christians. Saying that they are not Christians is simply a cop out IMHO.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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For instance, killing an abortionist is just so completely out of keeping with Christian doctrine there's no way that person can be a Christian.

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But this is just your personal opinion.There are probably hundreds, possibly thousands of people, including clergy, who would disagree with you, all of them considering themselves Christians.On the other hand, there are probably many thousands of people who call themselves Christians who oppose ALL killing, including "legal" killing such as in war and executions by the state. Pacifist Christians, if you will.Clearly, "Christian doctrine" is interpreted in many, many different ways and there is absolutely no way for anyone to declare a particular doctrine the "correct" one, since humans are flawed and can never interpret it 100% perfectly.

Well that just disqualified every supposed Christian ever born. Which is it hun? "No sin ever" or "well, maybe but you're really sorry for it." You can't have it both ways.You claim that those that do terrible things aren't Christian, what if they repent?What if they do it again, but then repent again?What if they honestly and sincerely believe they are doing what the bible tells them is right?What if they are wrong?What if you are wrong?From my believing days, I know that the only one who can judge who is or is not a believer is Christ himself. Everyone else only has what people call themselves to go by. Well... there is that whole fruits issue, but again, if nothing is said about a person's beliefs, you have no clue as to whether or not they are Christian.Many people here have made claims concerning this country having a Christian majority, but then in different threads make claims that this group or that group aren't real Christians. The Christian majority claim is solely made on what these people consider themselves. Once again, you can't have it both ways.

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So lets set the record straight right here and now and define a Scotsman, then we can go from there.I know of no rule books on being a Scotsman, or any other criteria other than just living in Scotland.Being Scottish would be no more than just living in Scotland, or being of Scotish decent.It would really matter what you did as a person that would define you as a scotsman or not. To me thats the whole logic. But it's not clear just exactly what a Christian is.I mean to me it is, but the definition is so broad.Also if someone wasn't following the ten commandments, something I think all Christians should subscribe to, then are they acting in the name of Christianity, and would Christianity be to blame?Relating Hitler to Christianity is in someway to say that Christianity had something to do with it. That's racism, without the race. Something we would all agree here on this forum that is intolerable, and holds no logic. How true.

Yes, absolutly. He laid down the rules, and if we act outside those rules, then in no way are we to be related to Jesus, or being a christian. That goes for me as well.If Jesus comes at that very moment, what would happen? Even if he lives in America?I don't think so. He would be an American of Scottish decent.That's the problem with America, no-one here is from here.

It is pretty common knowledge around here, and someone in this very thread as ackknowledged that.Tell me, before the NTS fallacy usually gets used, usually someone is trying to associate Hitler with Christianity. Where's the logic in that?

It depends on the context of the word true in that staement.When a Christian is trying to defend himself against the association of Hitler with his own personal decision, when can look at those actions and clearly see that they aren't true Christian actions. There are some basic rules that we all subscribe to.You cannot be forgiven, unless you ask for it. There is no way you are asking for forgicvness and killing someone at the same time. You cannot be repenting and doing that at the same time.Would a true American commit road rage?
Absolutly. It is our favorite past time
But seriously, being American has nothing to do with the act of commiting Road Rage. So the NTS fallacy could apply to that.