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Author Topic:   Purgatory
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 33 (241370)
09-08-2005 1:52 PM


Purgatory - the place where souls go for.... em I dunno.
Where does the concept come from?
What does it represent?
(I can see no clear reference to it in my bible - is there one?)

Replies to this message:
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 Message 21 by tsig, posted 11-01-2005 10:23 PM CK has not replied

  
AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 33 (241490)
09-08-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
09-08-2005 1:52 PM


Forum?
Charles,
Is this a question about the bible? (i.e. Bible Study Forum), or a question about history, human culture, and human creations (i.e. Comparative Religions Forum)?
If you could make that clearer in your OP, I'd be happy to promote this one up to the appropriate forum.
Thanks.

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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 33 (244312)
09-17-2005 7:51 AM


Bump
CK
Still interested in this one? I think it's a good question, but I couldn't figure out from the OP which of the two questions you're asking.
Please take a look and let me know. Thanks.

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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 4 of 33 (244322)
09-17-2005 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminBen
09-17-2005 7:51 AM


Re: Bump
I have no idea - I don't know anything about it so I don't have any frame of reference.

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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 33 (244325)
09-17-2005 8:57 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 33 (244329)
09-17-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
09-08-2005 1:52 PM


Catholics
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory
From the link:
There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.
A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:
I know this is generally against the rules of the forum, but I am just providing a link to some potentially helpful information. I have no real commentary to add, sorry.
Also see:
404 Not Found
This message has been edited by Modulous, Sat, 17-September-2005 02:25 PM

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 7 of 33 (244358)
09-17-2005 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
09-17-2005 9:22 AM


Re: Catholics
modulus' link writes:
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."
....While this passage presents considerable difficulty.
Purgatory is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. The RC take on things is that it is: by faith AND by deeds that you get to heaven. Faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit AND the teaching, instructions of the RC church. And works: doing good deeds, being baptised, holy communion, confession before a priest etc. As far a purgatory goes, RC reckons that every soul will have unforgiven sin on it when the body in which is resides, dies. These sins needs to be 'purged' before the soul can enter heaven ("nothing unclean shall enter heaven"). The time a person spends in purgatory depends on the amount of sin there is and whether people still alive pray and offer masses for the soul (and so reduce it's time in purgatory.)
Whether or not a person went to purgatory or straight to hell depended on the type of sin on their soul. Venial (less serious) sin meant purgatory, mortal (serious) sin meant Hell. Both as defined by the RC church.
The difficulty referred to above arise out of the fact that the Bible itself doesn't actually say that there is any such thing as purgatory. The teaching is ex-Biblical. That this can happen arises from the fact the the RC faith is made up of Bible + RC Church teaching. That something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it cannot be part of the RC faith. Other examples include: pope infallible, pope at all, hierarchial church, Mary Imaculate, Mary as Intercessor between man and God/Jesus, infant baptism, prayers for the dead etc
Purgatory has a chequered history in terms of abuse enable by it. The practice in Martin Luthers time, of selling 'indulgences' were one of the reasons for his rebellion against his church which helped spark the Reformation. Indulgences were church authorised discounts for purgatory. You could basically buy your way out of time in purgatory if you paid for it.
I'm not that au fait with things RC but have heard that thinking on purgo/venial/mortal sin may be changing - but I'm not sure
Non-RC's would consider purgatory a heresy. It's not in the Bible but is a man-made idea. The whole idea that you can 'earn' your own salvation by your actions is similarily considered a complete heresy. Not only does the Bible not teach this but is quite clear about how a person is saved and that it has nothing at all to do with their behaviour.

Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 33 (244363)
09-17-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
09-08-2005 1:52 PM


The concept of Purgatory is intricately tied to the concept of what is required for forgiveness. Many Christians would, I believe, agree that for sins to be forgiven they must be recognized and repented. If you screwed up, you must realize that you really did screw up and be sorry you did so before you can be forgiven.
This is covered in many non-RC churches during the confession. The Creedal Christian Community says that you can be sorry for things you have done without knowledge and be forgiven them directly. You simply need to be aware that you have done things, even if unwittingly, that has caused harm to others.
The concept of Puragtory is directed towards the person who has committed sins and dies without either recognizing he has sinned or while recognizing the fact, has not repented.
In that situation the Roman Catholic Church provides the spiritual equavalent of a halfway house, a place where the person has the opportunity for appeal and redress, where they can examine their life and repent for those things that have gone unrepentant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RC Priest
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 33 (244721)
09-18-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by iano
09-17-2005 11:14 AM


Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Let me deal with a misunderstanding first.
1. Contrary to Iano’s claim, the RC Church does not claim that faith and deeds can get you into heaven. It is grace, the RC Church teaches that “has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us ”the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ . ’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1987).
“Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God.” (CCC, 1996).
Now if it’s a gift that means that those who are aware of it must either choose to accept it or reject it. For those who accept it, lets call that faith. But if we suppose that this is where our spiritual journey ends, then that would be a tragic mistake for as James says, ”What good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it?’ (James 2:14). We’d do well also to consider Jesus’ own parable about how on judgment day all people will be divided into two groups: Those who have fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, welcomed the stranger, clothed the naked, given help to the sick, and visted those in prison, against those who have done none of this. (Matthew 25:31-45).
Faith and works are not separate entities. They are parts of the same act of devotion.
With regards to Purgatory, it is important to realize that it was believed by the earliest members of Christianity, as well as the Jews before them. II Maccabees 12:39-45 illustrates this historical truth. I want to make a very important distinction. II Maccabees 12:39-45 does two things. First it makes the philosophical/theological claim that to pray for the dead is a good thing, implying that there is some sort of intermediate state where departed individuals can benefit from our prayers. This claim can be rejected by those who do not view Maccabees as Sacred Scripture. But the second point is the one relevant to this post. The verse makes the historical claim that certain Jews from this time prayed for those who had died.
Around the time of Jesus, we have rabbinical writings testifying to the existence of a ”Purgatory,’ though they would not have used that particular word.
And throughout early Christianity we have hosts of early Church Fathers endorsing the view, as well as Biblical authors that are see to be hinting towards it.
Flags often start flying when the word ”Purgatory’ is mentioned. This is because these individuals have a deep and sincere devotion to the Bible and they believe that the doctrine of Purgatory is extra-Biblical. Members of the RC Church would disagree.
Logically speaking, from a Christian perspective, all people are sinners. While Jesus died for our sins, it doesn’t change the fact that we still sin, and it doesn’t change the fact that we are in need of forgiveness. When we die we will die a sinful being. But Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean will enter heaven. And that is why Christians believe Jesus dies for us, so that we can be made pure and pleasing to God. The Bible does not tell us how Jesus’ death washes away our sins, it just tells us that they do. Its not unreasonable to suppose that at our death, those who have died in God’s friendship will find that that grace is personally activated and they are purified.
This is what Purgatory can be. The Church’s catechism states that it has not determined whether it is a place or a process or both. The point is though that purification takes place, and all Christian’s believe this. Catholics calls this Purgatory.
This is a complex subject so if anyone wishes further detail on certain elements of my post, then please say so. If not, view this as a brief response correcting the misconceptions about the faith/works controversy, as well as an intro to the subject of Purgatory.
EVC's Resident Priest

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 33 (244770)
09-19-2005 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RC Priest
09-18-2005 10:14 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Logically speaking, from a Christian perspective, all people are sinners. While Jesus died for our sins, it doesn’t change the fact that we still sin, and it doesn’t change the fact that we are in need of forgiveness. When we die we will die a sinful being. But Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean will enter heaven. And that is why Christians believe Jesus dies for us, so that we can be made pure and pleasing to God. The Bible does not tell us how Jesus’ death washes away our sins, it just tells us that they do. Its not unreasonable to suppose that at our death, those who have died in God’s friendship will find that that grace is personally activated and they are purified.
This is what Purgatory can be.
If as you say (and Protestants agree with this), that Jesus' death washes away our sins, this is exactly why, according to Protestants, no Purgatory or intermediate state is required to be clean in order to enter heaven. We are "clothed in His righteousness" as He died on the cross clothed in our sinner's filthy rags, having exchanged His perfection for our sins in a true exchange. Based on HIS righteousness those who put their trust in Him are completely cleansed and fit for heaven. Purgatory would seem to be based on an idea of some OTHER mode of cleansing than being washed in Jesus' shed blood alone.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 33 (244812)
09-19-2005 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RC Priest
09-18-2005 10:14 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
rcpriest writes:
“It is grace, the RC Church teaches that "has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us ”the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ . ’”
If a life-long violent criminal has accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour and soon afterwards holds up a liquor store, murders the owner and gets shot dead by a policeman during the getaway does he go to hell? If so, why?
With regards to Purgatory, it is important to realize that it was believed by the earliest members of Christianity, as well as the Jews before them. II Maccabees 12:39-45 illustrates this historical truth.
Paul rebuked Peter due to the latter distorting the Gospel when he chose to hang with Jews so as not to be seen with unclean Gentiles. Was the council at Jerusalem not called in order to deal with the hangover of Jewish legalism which was trying to add something to the Gospel. The church was warned against false teaching that would come in, from within the body itself as soon as it was established.
What basis is there for believing that early Christian fathers got it right. There is nothing to say that they were inspired in their writing. So why should their writing be considered inerrant?
I want to make a very important distinction. II Maccabees 12:39-45 does two things. First it makes the philosophical/theological claim that to pray for the dead is a good thing, implying that there is some sort of intermediate state where departed individuals can benefit from our prayers. This claim can be rejected by those who do not view Maccabees as Sacred Scripture. But the second point is the one relevant to this post. The verse makes the historical claim that certain Jews from this time prayed for those who had died.
It is true that Maccabees is not accepted by many as scripture and if so, what it says is irrelevant in relation to doctrine. The Jews had all kinds of confused thinking, not least of which was the idea that righteousness came by following laws - ie: what you do affects your position with God (works)
Around the time of Jesus, we have rabbinical writings testifying to the existence of a ”Purgatory,’ though they would not have used that particular word. And throughout early Christianity we have hosts of early Church Fathers endorsing the view, as well as Biblical authors that are see to be hinting towards it.
Theres the rub I suppose. If you take things that are non-scriptural into account then you've got man-made (and thus fallible) in the equation. If you take scripture alone then a hint is all that is left. And a hint is not enough to form a doctrine with.
Logically speaking, from a Christian perspective, all people are sinners. While Jesus died for our sins, it doesn’t change the fact that we still sin, and it doesn’t change the fact that we are in need of forgiveness. When we die we will die a sinful being.
Scripturally speaking, it is sin which resides in the flesh which wars with the believers spirit - which has been justified. The old man is crucified with Christ and the person is resurrected - in Christ. And there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ. The old man is gone - he can't come back - irrespective of future sin. This, given that it is not we who sin but sin which dwells in our flesh. There is a distinction between spirit and flesh especially in the light of a person who is born of the spirit (or born again). Isn't it only the flesh which dies (and thus sin with it) on death, leaving only the justified spirit.
The point is though that purification takes place, and all Christian’s believe this. Catholics calls this Purgatory.
But the distinction is the a non-Catholic Christian believes it happens at the point of conversion - not after death. I'm not sure the word purification is biblical either: justified, sanctified, glorified seems to be the process
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Sep-2005 02:13 PM

Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 12 of 33 (245571)
09-21-2005 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RC Priest
09-18-2005 10:14 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
What!?
I thought purgatory truly revived from greedy popes trying to sell indulgences to make money. Augustine never pushed the idea!
The concept is anti-Christ in that it negates Christ’s sufferings as redemptive and instills doubts about the cross of that Christ atoning believers . and of the resurrection of Christ that should cause men to raise to everlasting life.
Dare to read a little of Luther on Galatians to understand why priest-craft and purgatory seriously belittle the cross and resurrection of Christ.

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Jackie
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 33 (255515)
10-29-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Philip
09-21-2005 6:48 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Egyptians had a doctrine of purgatory, I bet if we did research it goes back as far as Sumer, perhaps the decent of Inanna.

This message is a reply to:
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 14 of 33 (255553)
10-29-2005 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Philip
09-21-2005 6:48 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
quote:
What!?
I thought purgatory truly revived from greedy popes trying to sell indulgences to make money. Augustine never pushed the idea!
The concept is anti-Christ in that it negates Christ’s sufferings as redemptive and instills doubts about the cross of that Christ atoning believers . and of the resurrection of Christ that should cause men to raise to everlasting life.
Dare to read a little of Luther on Galatians to understand why priest-craft and purgatory seriously belittle the cross and resurrection of Christ.
That would be correct, purgatory is not biblical and IS anti-Christ.
It suggests that more than Christ's gift is necessary, and that is simply not true. The RC makes no beans about it being her idea, as is all of sacred tradition, non-biblical.

This message is a reply to:
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 15 of 33 (255555)
10-29-2005 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jackie
10-29-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
quote:
Egyptians had a doctrine of purgatory, I bet if we did research it goes back as far as Sumer, perhaps the decent of Inanna.
For you.
home.computer.net/~cya/cy00026.html - 9k
"In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was open for all manner of priestly extortions. Prayers for the dead ever do hand in hand with purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priest and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there by special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the pgan priesthood devouring widows houses, and making merchandise of the tendor feelings of beloved dead" (The Two Babylons, p. 168).
That the doctrine of purgatory is unscriptural can be shown easily. The Bible says nothing about any such place, and in fact the most devastating arguements against purgatory come from those inspired pages. Christ made not even so much as a passing allusion to purgatory. Instead He said: "He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life" (John 5:24). Hence eternal life is already possessed by the soul that believes on Christ and there can be no possible condemnation of that soul. When Jesus said to the penitent theif on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43), the clear inference was that at his death he would go immediately to heaven, Christ's words, "It is finished" (John 19:30), spoken at the end of His suffering on the cross, mean that the work of redemption which He came to perform has been accomplished, finished, not partially, but completely."
The link makes a great read.
Added: I see the link does not work. Google 'Pagan Origin of Purgatory',
This message has been edited by DorfMan, 10-29-2005 09:41 PM

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