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Author
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Topic: Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 16 of 150 (135830)
08-20-2004 10:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by lfen
08-20-2004 8:34 PM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Why couldn't God have done just as your parents did and just flat out forgiven you? Why a sacrifice at all? Because in the garden before anyone ever sinned, God pronounced the death penalty on sin/disobedience to God's laws. He told Adam that the day he sinned/disobeyed he would die. He sinned and on that day he suffered spiritual death and separation from God and his garden. Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sins, it shall die...." The first thing God did after Adam sinned was kill an animal and made a covering for Adam and Eve, signifying sacrificial atonement. The first children of Adam offered sacrifice, indicative that their father also did. God told Abraham to take Isaac his son up for an atonement sacrifice. Then God revealed how this was an illustration from God of the eventual sacrifice of his own son, Jesus. When Isaac asked his father where the sacrifice was, Abraham told him, "God will provide himself a sacrifice." God provided a lamb caught in the thicket and eventually provided the once and for all perfect sacrifice, Jesus the perfect sinless "lamb." Since God pronounced the death penalty on sin, either every sinner must die physically as well as spiritually or someone innocent of sin must die in the sinner's place. Jesus filled that capacity and satisfied the justice of Jehovah God, majesty of the Universe. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 8:34 PM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by lfen, posted 08-21-2004 12:21 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 40 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 4:35 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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I haven't ignored anything. The thought that God did not require or desire sacrifices also shows up in their songs, which did not refer to sacrificing to idols.
Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. Psalm 51
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. So it was not a new concept among God's people that God did not require or desire the sacrifices. God was angry that they sacrificed to other gods, but he also said he did not give them the commands for sacrifice. Who did the sacrifical system truly benefit?
quote:
And if who you sinned agaisnt is dead? No forgiveness? That would stink.
So don't sin, then you won't need forgiveness.
quote:
And you support this by ignoring passages that contradict your theory, and by ignoring the context/misunderstanding other passages in order to make them seem like they help your theory.
Which means the Bible contradicts itself, the prophets were lying, or God just doesn't remember what he said earlier. The Bible is a religious and political writing. There are battling nations, kings, and prophets. The scribes did the writing and rewriting and no matter what anyone's theory is, someone will always complain about words being taken out of context or misunderstanding. What I see are people trying to do away with an expensive sacrificial system that doesn't seem to have been required except maybe by the priests.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 11:35 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 18 of 150 (135848)
08-20-2004 11:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
08-20-2004 11:10 PM
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PD, like others are trying to tell you, you're ignoring the other side of the sacrifice coin which is that it was God who instigated the sacrifices and who required atonement be made for sin. You've posted a couple dozen or so scriptures outa context which were statements made to rebellious Israel who thought they could live in sin and idolatry without consequence. They were living for the devil, so to speak and figuring all they had to do was kill some sacrifices and placate a just God whom they had disobeyed. God is telling them to forget the meaningless sacrifices until they repent and return to him because they were a useless farce without allegience to him as their God. Sacrifices were for the devout, the repentant and the true worshippers of God, just as today, yah, Jesus died for our sins, but if we think we can say a little prayer of acceptance of him and then go out and live like the devil, it is meaningless. It would take thread pages to post all that God instructed concerning the need and how to's of OT sacrifice and about the necessity of the atonement of Jesus who's blood "cleanses us from all sin." This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-20-2004 10:38 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 08-20-2004 11:10 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 19 of 150 (135851)
08-21-2004 12:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by lfen
08-20-2004 9:23 PM
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Buddhism simply ignores the sin problem and in fact the Zen Buddhists don't even worship a supreme God so far as I can determine. The nearest thing to a god to them is the Buddah to whom they bow the knee and offer gifts. Shakyamuni, the alleged Biddah abandoned his wife and child, never to return and went off to meditate and have these alleged spiritual encounters where he was suppose to have been enlightened. Zen Buddhists make a point to dissavow themselves from Hinduism, though, I believe Shayuamuni was originally Hindu before his "enlightment," as I understand the story. According to the Voice of the Martyrs, there is some persecution of Christians who practice and teach Christianity in some Buddhist nations. As with Islam, they don't want to lose their power and influence when their people convert out of their religion though they're definitely generally more tolerant than Islam.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 9:23 PM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by lfen, posted 08-21-2004 12:37 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 20 of 150 (135857)
08-21-2004 12:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
08-20-2004 10:30 PM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Buz, It strikes me as being a very primitive blood thing. For primitive man to believe this makes sense. But given what we know now of the great sophistication of the function of the universe I am amazed that moderns would hold this as an accurate description of the source of the universe, but of course they do. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 10:30 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 12:32 AM | | lfen has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 21 of 150 (135860)
08-21-2004 12:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
08-21-2004 12:21 AM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
But given what we know now of the great sophistication of the function of the universe I am amazed that moderns would hold this as an accurate description of the source of the universe, but of course they do. Only a few. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by lfen, posted 08-21-2004 12:21 AM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by lfen, posted 08-21-2004 12:45 AM | | jar has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 22 of 150 (135862)
08-21-2004 12:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
08-21-2004 12:00 AM
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Buddhism simply ignores the sin problem Would you define what you mean by "the sin problem"? If you mean the problem of people acting selfishly, hurtfully, and wrongfully to one another Buddhism certainly addresses those issues. The eight fold path addresses moral behaviour and the doctrine of karma addresses the consequences of injurious behaviour.
Shakyamuni, the alleged Biddah abandoned his wife and child She was a princess, his son a prince they were very well taken care of and later met with him for teaching. And what is an alleged Biddah? Do you know what the word Buddha means?
According to the Voice of the Martyrs, there is some persecution of Christians who practice and teach Christianity in some Buddhist nations. And by common sense some where in the world there is some persecution of one religion by another of some general sort taking place sometimes to some people. Have you by any chance specific charges? Buz, I will tell you your attitude in this post is what disgusted me with christianity and why I walked away from it years ago. You are arrogantly dismissive of what you don't even have knowledge of and happily embrace ancient primitive myths that extol barbaric practises such as blood sacrifice and genocide as if they had sublime meaning. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2004 12:00 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 23 of 150 (135865)
08-21-2004 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-21-2004 12:32 AM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Only a few. Come to think of it I've no idea of numbers or relatively percentages. This forum is a self selection so offers a skewed sample. I don't know if polls are very accurate or not. I hope you are right. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 12:32 AM | | jar has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 24 of 150 (135895)
08-21-2004 5:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by lfen
08-20-2004 8:44 PM
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quote:
I know sacrifice was practised by the Jews and Greeks. Perhaps it's based on childhood dynamics of guilt, punishment, forgiveness and atonement with the parents.
IMPO, with no source material, ancient cultures performed sacrifices to appease what they perceived as displeaure from the gods or God. (Droughts, floods, natural disasters etc.) That would be your forgiveness and atonement scenerio. I also feel there were sacrifices to guarantee favor from the gods or God. (Battles, fertility, wealth etc.) Churches use the same scenerios today. At the beginning of each fiscal year, the churches I have been to always give the talk on tithing. Insinuating the more money you give to the church the more God will bless you. I've heard people promise to give up something of value (life, money, vice etc) if God will grant their petition. So it seems people still have the need even today to grease God's palm, so to speak, to receive blessings or forgiveness. Even though the books of the prophets seem to contradict themselves on whether God wanted sacrifices or not; once we get around the religous grandstanding and the political posturing, I feel the overall theme of the Bible is right behavior toward others all the time, not just when it benefits you.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 8:44 PM | | lfen has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 25 of 150 (135901)
08-21-2004 6:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
08-20-2004 11:35 PM
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quote:
it was God who instigated the sacrifices and who required atonement be made for sin.
quote:
They were living for the devil, so to speak and figuring all they had to do was kill some sacrifices and placate a just God whom they had disobeyed.
You say the sacrifice was required to atone for sin and yet you say that the prophets are telling the sinning and disobedient Israelites that their sacrifices won't atone for their sins. quote:
God is telling them to forget the meaningless sacrifices until they repent and return to him because they were a useless farce without allegience to him as their God. Sacrifices were for the devout, the repentant and the true worshippers of God
This doesn't make sense to me. The devout shouldn't be sinning. Those who repent should not sin again. Neither of these should need sacrifices. If, as you say, the sacrifices are only for those who are doing what is right, then the sacrifices do not truly atone for sin. God is forgiving the sins because of repentance, not the sacrifice. So David was wrong when he sang that God didn't desire sacrifices?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 11:35 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 10:48 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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I pretty much disagree with Buz. I do not believe that sacrifice was required or that the penalty of sin was death and so Jesus had to die and all that stuff. If you look at the examples of sacrifice in the Bible, most are more of the nature of offerings, thankgivings, sharings. There are notable exceptions that show up, particularly in Leviticus, that are sacrifices for atonement. But that is also where we find some of the harshest punishments and most of the rules for the Priestly Class. But you presented evidence that seemed to show that a sacrifice was not required. That is, in my opinion, true. But no one required GOD to make such a sacrifice. Instead, Jesus life, death and reserection was an offering, freely give, by GOD of GOD. Not only is it propitiation for our sins, it is a clear statement against traditional sacrifice and an example of what sacrifice should be in the future. God sacrificed himself to save us. This is the same act you see in the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save his companions, the mother that drowns holding her childs head above water, the policeman that gives his life protecting his community. It was a statement that said, "Love GOD, Love your neighbors as yourself". It said, bringing some dumb animal and burning it does nothing. It said, you cannot steal 100 talents and think that if you give the priests ten you will be forgiven. It said, really live by the two Great Commandments. It said, "I loved you so much that I died for you, and for the whole world, those who believe in me and even those who do not".
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 08-21-2004 6:26 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: 01-19-2004
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Message 27 of 150 (135915)
08-21-2004 11:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
08-20-2004 10:06 PM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
quote:
Isaih(the heck with the spelling.) was written in past tense
Um, hello? God is not bound by time. Duh! As far as he is concerned armagedden is as good as over.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 08-20-2004 10:06 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: 01-19-2004
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Message 28 of 150 (135916)
08-21-2004 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Christian7
08-21-2004 11:16 AM
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
btw, Issiah is not the only book containing signifacant passages fortelling the coming of the messiah. Man, it started back in the garden of eaden yo.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM | | Christian7 has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
But the case is, that the child of which Isaiah speaks was his own child, with which his wife or his mistress was then pregnant; for he says in the next chapter, (Is. viii. 2), "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the Priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah; and I went unto the Prophetess, and she conceived and bear a son and he says, at ver. 18 of the same chapter, "Behold I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel." It may not be improper here to observe, that the word translated a virgin in Isaiah, does not signify a virgin in Hebrew, but merely a 'young woman.' The tense is also falsified in the translation. Levi gives the Hebrew text of Isaiah vii. 14, and the translation in English with it -- "Behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son;" [NOTE: A Defence of the Old Testament." By David Levi. London, 1797. -- Editor.] The expression, says he, is in the present tense. This translation agrees with the other circumstances related of the birth of this child which was to be a sign to Ahaz. But as the true translation could not have been imposed upon the world as a prophecy of a child to be born seven hundred years afterwards, the christian translators have falsified the original: and instead of making Isaiah to say, behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son, they have made him to say, "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. It is, however, only necessary for a person to read Isaiah vii. and viii., and he will be convinced that the passage in question is no prophecy of the person called Jesus Christ. Thomas Paine The full text of critique can be found here: Thomas Paine Examine Prophecies » Internet Infidels
Thomas Paine is addressing the claims of OT prophesy made by the authors of the New Testament. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM | | Christian7 has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Re: Very glad this finally got released.
quote:
God is not bound by time. Duh!
But we are and God was supposedly talking with the prophets in real time. Does God speak to Christians today in past tense?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM | | Christian7 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 7:14 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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