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Author Topic:   Reasons why the NeoCons aren't real Republicans
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 301 (216583)
06-13-2005 9:51 AM


They lack fiscal discipline.
They believe in more government intrusion into people's personal lives rather than personal liberty.
They believe in nation building, preemptive war, and "might is right".
They believe in reducing the power of state governments.
Anyone have anything to add?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by EZscience, posted 06-13-2005 10:12 AM nator has not replied
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 06-13-2005 11:53 AM nator has not replied
 Message 4 by Jazzns, posted 06-13-2005 2:41 PM nator has not replied
 Message 6 by gnojek, posted 06-15-2005 5:10 PM nator has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 2 of 301 (216590)
06-13-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
06-13-2005 9:51 AM


I can add one thing...
They seek to marginalize scientists as left-wing elitists and ignore the implications of science whenever it is convenient to their policies.
Allowing their religious supporters the lattitude to contest or water down the teaching of evolutionary theory in public schools is just the tip of the iceburg. They actively suppress and distort the findings of science whenever and wherever they deem it appropriate. I began assembling some evidence on this here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 06-13-2005 9:51 AM nator has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 3 of 301 (216623)
06-13-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
06-13-2005 9:51 AM


They don't believe in "telling it like it is", even if it hurts.
They do not believe in persons taking responsibility for their own actions, or if in charge taking responsibility for the actions of those beneath you.
They no longer believe in filibusters.
They don't like small business owners (mom and pop businesses).
They do not care much for the Constitution, nor the actual history of our founding fathers.
Apparently they do not like traditional values, and must hate Jimmy Stewart (I can only imagine most of his films getting banned or severely edited after they get in power, esp Mr Smith Goes to Washington and Its a Wonderful Life). Some of the comments I have been hearing have made my head swim.
AbE: They also do not like taking care of our soldiers.
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-13-2005 11:55 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 06-13-2005 9:51 AM nator has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 301 (216668)
06-13-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
06-13-2005 9:51 AM


1. Free enterprise. True conservatives believe that companies should be allowed to compete without much restriction. Rather the neo-cons like to pass asinine anti-American legislation to protect their campaign interests and give out no-bid contracts to themselves and their friends.
2. Freedom of religion. True conservatives would not be in the business of either restricting or supporting a particular religion.
3. Freedom of speech. True conservatives keep their noses out of controlling the media.
4. Right to privacy. True conservatives would not give law enforcement sweeping, unconstitutional, unchecked power.

Organizations worth supporting:
Electronic Frontier Foundation | Defending your rights in the digital world (Protect Privacy and Security)
Home | American Civil Liberties Union (Protect Civil Rights)
AAUP (Protect Higher Learning)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 06-13-2005 9:51 AM nator has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 5 of 301 (217228)
06-15-2005 4:59 PM


They are oblivious to any critique.
They are obstanate.
They are narrow minded. One size fits all policy makers.
They mis-interpret data and mis-represent opposing views.
They are assholes.

gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 301 (217230)
06-15-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
06-13-2005 9:51 AM


Didn't most neocons start out as radical leftists?
They liked the idea of permanent revolution.
At least most of the original neocons were far left liberals.
they were called "neo" conservatives as a joke, but they took to the name and made it their own.
It's like the hippies grew up and became yuppies, scary yuppies.
I like this movie about them:
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/bbc_warparty.rm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 06-13-2005 9:51 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 11:24 AM gnojek has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 301 (217263)
06-15-2005 7:42 PM


I can't help but repeat a 25-year-old joke:
Two old sisters were driving to town. Lula said, "Bettyjo, did you just see those two Democrats jackin' off in that field?"
Bettyjo answered, "Lula, you've got such a foul mouth! Yes, I saw those two degenerates abusing themselves right out there in the open, but what on earth made you decide they're Democrats?"
Lula replied, "Well, Bettyjo, if they'd of been Republicans they'd of been fuckin' somebody else!"

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 301 (217369)
06-16-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by gnojek
06-15-2005 5:10 PM


Thank you for that link, it was quite interesting as it allowed the neocons to speak for themselves. It highlighted why there was such a difference between the Bush platform in 2000 and Bush in 2004... the rise of the neocons after 9/11.
I wish some of EvCs Bush apologists would watch that and explain how they can support Bush's acceptance of neocon agendas, if they are truly "traditional" republicans.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by gnojek, posted 06-15-2005 5:10 PM gnojek has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 12:26 PM Silent H has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 9 of 301 (217390)
06-16-2005 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
06-16-2005 11:24 AM


I wish some of EvCs Bush apologists would watch that and explain how they can support Bush's acceptance of neocon agendas, if they are truly "traditional" republicans.
So do I, and I think that should be the democratic campaign focus this time.
Listen, here are your values, here are your rights, we realize that you stand for them and you're passionate about them. The thing is, you're a democrat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 11:24 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 1:49 PM dsv has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 10 of 301 (217416)
06-16-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by dsv
06-16-2005 12:26 PM


Listen, here are your values, here are your rights, we realize that you stand for them and you're passionate about them. The thing is, you're a democrat.
Interestingly enough they could also do the opposite: show Reps what they are accepting now under Bush and the neocon leadership, then replay old Rep quotes to remind them that those policies are sterotypical Dem policies.
Kind of... "If you hated Democrats then, well that's what you are now. If you want to return to being a good Republican, better vote Democrat this time."
Maybe there'd be a serious backlash if they realized Bush made them Democrats.
They could print up Tshirts and bumperstickers saying "have you been liberalized?"
(by the way, interesting avatar, who is it/where is it from?)
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-16-2005 01:50 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 12:26 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 1:58 PM Silent H has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 11 of 301 (217419)
06-16-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
06-16-2005 1:49 PM


While I agree with how that is happening, I understand that people hate to be told they're wrong or that they made a bad decision.
I feel, of course, that one that voted for Bush in 2004 when we knew what he was about, is an idiot and does not really care about the future of this country. But that attitude won't make them say "Yeah, I am an idiot, I need to vote different this time" or "Yeah, I should really start looking at the facts before I vote"
I think a different approach is needed if we're to win in 2008.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 1:49 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 2:09 PM dsv has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 301 (217421)
06-16-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dsv
06-16-2005 1:58 PM


Very true. Everyone seems pretty touchy these days with admitting error, and perhaps prone to hardening a position rather than switching (which could be seen as an admission).
I think a different approach is needed if we're to win in 2008.
Well not to disappoint you but I'm not a Democrat either so as far as I'm concerned a win for "us" could come from either party, or both could hand "us" some losers.
I am holding out hope that the traditional Reps will win the coming power struggle with the neocons and put up an actual candidate that is not playing to special interests (or divisions within the nation... ie the "culture war") in 2008.
If that happens, and the Dems continue their testicular growth by not sidelining forthright candidates and attempting to pander to religious zealots, then I'll feel we've won something as a nation in 08 no matter who gets in office.
The downside will be if the neocons retain control, and Dems castrate themselves (again) by trying to attract hardcore religious types.
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-16-2005 02:11 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 1:58 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 2:19 PM Silent H has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 13 of 301 (217422)
06-16-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Silent H
06-16-2005 2:09 PM


I agree. I'm not a registered democrat either. Personally, I hate the two party system and wish I could vote for a third party. With Bush and the Neo-Cons being the beneficiaries of a third-party vote, it has been impossible for me to do so in the last two elections. The risks are just too great, as was witnessed by this term.
By "us" winning I just mean anyone that is not a religious schizophrenic at this point. I just want some rational thoughts in the freakin White House, is that too much to ask?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 06-16-2005 2:09 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2005 11:18 PM dsv has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 301 (217424)
06-16-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dsv
06-16-2005 2:19 PM


The risks are just too great, as was witnessed by this term.
I agree, I had to vote for Kerry. By comparison to Bush I couldn't even call it choosing the lesser of two evils. It was choosing someone with an accomplished track record and someone with a rather massive failed record.
I just want some rational thoughts in the freakin White House, is that too much to ask?!
Perhaps this occurs every once in a while when someone flipping through channels briefly hangs on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 301 (217506)
06-16-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dsv
06-16-2005 2:19 PM


Personally, I hate the two party system and wish I could vote for a third party.
i think we should institute a plurality system here. my idea for it is this: you check a box that says "liberal" or "coservative." from there, you select a candidate within that group of parties. the group of parties with the most votes wins, and the candidate with the most votes within that group represents the group.
that way, third parties could get larger because you could actually vote for them without worrying about that swing vote problem.
By "us" winning I just mean anyone that is not a religious schizophrenic at this point. I just want some rational thoughts in the freakin White House, is that too much to ask?!
hahahaha.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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