Gnostic timeline reversed?

That was the the inception of the Catholocism.......what went on before? This is true........but no Gnostic writings exist in ANYONE's canon, that's for certain.

SirPimpsAlot, I will reply with exact names and dates from some sources later in the weekend, I am fairly busy until sunday, so I hope this topic doesn't die before then, because I want to get this cleared up. Thanks for your responses!
Brad

No problem, brah.......just remember, dates vary depending on who you ask, but I'm pretty sure no one will deny that the earliest Christian writings in existance are the epistles (all books of the New Testament except the gospels and Revelations......."epistle" means "letter", and they are the letters sent from Paul and some of the disciples to various churches), and the epistles have no Gnostic or Pagan theology in them whatsoever.......and don't believe everything your parents taught you, but just because they taught it to you doesn't mean it's wrong.Oh, BTW, this thread shouldn't get closed any time soon, I can't imagine.This message has been edited by SirPimpsalot, 10-22-2004 12:05 PM

Dionysus was born by a mortal named Semele, The spirit of Zagreus was somehow passed into her body. She was impreganted by this spirit of Zagregus. She carried Dionysus in her womb. She was also the lover of Zeus . Hera fooled Zeus into revealing his true self to Semele and burned her to a crisp. He then took the baby from her body and implanted it in his thigh.So lets review: Semele is a mortal woman who is impreganted by the spirit of another god. =virgin birth story.Zeus gave all the powers of his kindom to Dionysus as a child.
Hera and the Titans became jelous of this and thus devised a way to kill Dionysus. Hera distracted the guards that were to protect Dionysus and the Titans snuck in smeared in white gypsum attacked and tortured and tore to pieces Dionysus. Zeus then burned the Titans to ashes along with the body of Dionysus, he merged the Titans ashes with his sons and the human race was born with the dual nature.Lets review: Dionysus is co ruler with Zeus his father, he is betrayed and brutally killed by the Titans, he is resurected by his father. = betrayal/ resurrection story. Dionysus is dated to 1600 bc in Greece. Your right I can not prove nothing nor did I ever say I could. I am simply looking at the facts and drawing conclusions. from them. You seem to be the one who is being dogmatic about it. *edit to correct typo.This message has been edited by 1.61803, 10-22-2004 01:21 PM

Um, I didn't hear the word "virgin" anywhere in that story......again, this would apply to the cult of Alexander the Great, the Hercules myth, etc., etc. Vague resemblance (especially since there was no actual resurrection), except for the dual nature theology. But not the Christ-like Dionysus story. What facts? The only facts we have are that a few cults sprung up contemporaneously to Christianity with borrowed aspects from it.....This message has been edited by SirPimpsalot, 10-22-2004 04:07 PM

A thought has just occured to me.......since most aspects of the Christ mythos are taken from pre-Christian, Judaic texts, shouldn't that eliminate all controversy as to which religion came first and influenced the subsequent religions?

Actually, parts of the Gnostic writings are included in every canon. If you look at the history of Marcion, one of the most significat of the Gnostic leaders after Cedro, his canon was built arount the Pauline Epistles and Luke. The big issue was that during his redaction, he eliminated as many references to the OT as possible. In fact, many of the modern conservative Christian Sects, particularly many of the more fundamental ones, follow a very gnostic tradition.They see the Pauline Epistles, the secret knowledge found in Revelations, and the concept that the GOD of the OT is unknowable as part of their faith base. They believe that there is secret knowledge found in such works, known only to the faithful, only to the few saved, that is unavailable to the masses.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

the reason i say it might be is that it only records the words of christs, not the actions. the gnostics were concerned with christ as a spirit, and a source of wisdom, but not as a man who died.having christ say that he's all around us is, indeed, very gnostic.

Sirpimpsalot, What exactly is your argument? Is it your contention that Christanity came before Gnosticism? If so please show evidence to support this claim. Do you also propose that there is no gnostic influence to Christian writings? If so what evidence do you have to support this claim. If these are your arguments I must see some evidence that would give creedence to such. Christianity did influence the world, that is a no brainer. However the mythology of Christianity is not completely original. Virgin birth stories, Half god half man stories, Global floods, all were common in other religions that predate Christ. Like Judaism, I suppose the Jews "copied" from the Christians too. My God is better, than your God. Your a bunch of copy cats!! LOL.
"Crom laughs at yer fo-ah winds." Arnold S. as Conan

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Um, I fail to see an example here of any Gnostic writings existing in modern Christian canons. Whom would you be speaking of? Besides, a Gnostic-like interpretation isn't the same as Gnostic theology. For me, personally, there are aspects of my interpretation of religion which I found in Islam and Hindu and Buddhism, but my theology is pure........

This was an old Rabbinical tradition, which (if I recall correctly) pre-dates both Christianity and Gnosticism, making collections of sayings.......it reflects nothing particularly Gnostic, nor does it reflect any mythologizing in other gospels. And very Christian......."I will be with you always, even until the end of the Earth."

Alrighty: The earliest known Christ-based writings, whether Christian or Gnostic, are the epistles........which shows no Gnostic influence whatsoever. Also, most of the mythologizing of Christ is based off of Old Testament prophecy.......which means that Christianity is purely Judaic in origin, and that any similarities between Christianity and the cults that arose contemporaneously to it must be do to the Judaic influence of Christianity on these cults, not the Pagan influence of these cults on Christianity.And unless you have anything new to add, I do believe that's case closed.

Again, you are simply evading many of the issues by dancing around them.Gnostics were Christians.If you research the Gnostic canon you will find the Pauline Epistles and Luke were included.Gnostics were very much a part of the early church, some even Bishops.The difference was not in the writings themselves but in the underlying theology, the interpretations. The Gnostics used and accepted many, most even, of the books of the New Testament.The fact that you fail to see the connections does not mean they are not there. That is exactly the answer that a Gnostic would make.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And the Gnostics would clearly be wrong, as they clearly did not share the theology of those who learned from the living Christ Himself........

Some gnostics didn't even believe Christ the man ever existed, but was just a mythological conclusion. He was the same old story from the Jewish perspective. After this weekend is over, I promise, I'll go fact hunting with specific dates, names, and quotes!
Brad