Christian Evolutionists: How does that work? A Q&A session

i know saul is from tarsus. i meant why is he the leader of the church?and why don't you take the time to read and understand? read genesis 1&2 and tell me if god created the animals or man first. i've been reading and understanding for the entirety of my eighteen years as a believer... but i don't just listen to what everyone tells me the bible says.the bible doesn't have to be 100% accurate for god to be real. things like this don't matter to me. paul says it's inspired and perfect, not god. (paul also says to ignore geneologies because they are just confusing... see, even he acknowledged there were problems.) why does it matter to you if it's all right?

This may have been said already, but im way too lazy to check 180 posts. The bible says 'to the lord, ten thousand years is a day and a day is ten thousand years'. The 7 days described in Genesis1 are not nessesarily 24 hour periods. The days referred to could be eras in history billions of years long. The creation of 'the heavens and the earth' could be the big bang. As for evolution, i belive god created the first life(single celled organisms) which he then guided using evolution to what we have today. If my theory has any gaping holes in it, please point them out to me.

Well, other than the fact that between the two different creation narratives of Gen 1 and Gen 2, neither of them describe creation in the order described by the current scientific models?When you say that God "guided" evolution, how exactly does he do that? What are the "handles" God uses to steer evolution, seeing as how it's an inherently non-telological process?

The christan god is all-powerful, do you really think it would be difficult for him to choose which parts of the dna mutate and how? Humans are close to mapping the genome, but god created it, he knows which parts of a dna strand control what, and could easily manipulate it using mutation through the generations of a species. His 'handles' are mutation. Whether the mutation is good or bad is still up to him.

I dunno, but that's not really what I asked, now is it?And if God's so powerful, why is his interacting with the universe limited to fudging our DNA? I mean, isn't a half-assed intervention not really in the character of an all-powerful God? Why not just have created the universe 10 seconds ago, and populated Earth with humans with fake memories?Since God can do anything, why do you draw the line at anything above messing with DNA? If God can do that, and somehow not leave any traces of having done so, why doesn't he do other things? But we know how different kinds of mutations work, and when they happen, to some degree. So where, in the process of mutation, does God intervene? Actually, it's up to the environment.

You asked what god's 'handles' are, and I said genetic mutation. That answers your question. I never said god's ability to interact with the universe is limited to 'fudging with our dna', obviously his power has no limits. You ask why he wouldn't create us 10 sec. ago and implant our memories. Why would god create a being capable of free will and remembering if he is just going to command our will and thoughts? God can do anything, and I draw no line at messing around with dna as you say I do. I do not claim to know why god used the methods he did getting life to where it is now, so i dont't know why he doesn't 'do other things'. What 'other things' do you want him to do? You say we know when mutations happen. What do you base that on? Most genetic mutations don't have an observable effect, so they go undetected. As for when god intervenes, genetic mutations occur when the dna is splitting or replicating and a nitrogenous base (a component of dna) is either added, deleted, or replaced with another. This a genetic mutation, and doesn't usually have any effect, but sometimes it does. God could easily choose which codons will be switched and which ones will be kept. Lastly, you are right, whether a mutation has a positive or negative effect on the organism is dictated by the environment, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I meant to say that when god causes a mutation to happen, he knows the effect that it will cause. Poor wording, my bad.by the way, how do you get the quotes into the blue boxes?

I never said that either. If you'll read closely, what I asked you was, if his power is so great, why doesn't he do anything but mess about with DNA?Here's another question - why does he have to? Why couldn't he just set up the inital conditions of the universe such that it would proceed exactly as he chose; sort of like the ultimate trick pool shot? Why does God have to intervene at all? Why don't things just happen the way he planned them? If God plans, what potential circumstance could occur that wouldn't be in his plan? Scientific research. That's what I mean, though. How does he choose? In the cell, it happens at random because there's a random distribution of nucleotide bases inside the nucleus.If I asked you how to pick socks out of a drawer, you'd reply "with your hands." What does God use? By what mechanism does he determine which base sequences are going to result from mutations? The use of UBB codes. If you're in the message composing window, look to the left side where it says "UBB Code is ON", if you click that, you'll see the codes you can use.Otherwise if you're just reading the message click below it where it says "raw text" and you can see how I typed the message in, complete with codes.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-31-2004 08:06 PMThis message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-31-2004 08:07 PM

Maybe he did set it all up ahead of time, how should I know? I wasn't there. Am I saying that every mutation that occurs is divinely caused? Of course not, just the important ones. It just doesn't matter HOW he planned it, it matters that he DID plan, with an end goal in mind.i said--> u said--> Um... maybe you could be more specific. As I said, most mutations do not cause a change, and those that do cause a very minor change. So I ask again, what do you base your initial statement on? Be specific please. OK, you're not getting this whole concept of ALL-POWERFUL. God can make stuff happen without actually touching stuff. It's like magic, but real.By the way, what are you?(theistic, atheistic, christian...)

What I'm not getting is why you think that it's appropriate to use that word to handwave away the most important part of your theory - how God does what you say he does.You say he controls some mutations. I ask, "how?" That's not just some trifling detail. In fact, it's the most important part of your theory, because it's the only part we'd be able to verify. LOL! Fairy tales for grown-ups... Why does it matter?

quote:

---

The christan god is all-powerful, do you really think it would be difficult for him to choose which parts of the dna mutate and how?

---

Is not God powerful enough to set up the rules (ie the physical laws) at the moment of the Big Bang so that the earth and humans came about? Is not God powerful enough to know the end result of those physical laws without having to change the rules half way through? I don't see a reason why God would have to "guide" evolution?

Me read? Go back and read post 174 and then get back to me on the how's and why's of Gen 1 and 2. If I said different in a post to you about what came first then I appologize. Plants, animals, people. With some things in between. -Z

The time your refer (to God a day is like ten thousand years...) isn't to be taken literaly. It is just saying that time matters not to God. He is forever. So no, the time when God set night and day gave us the EXACT time. Sun comes up, goes down, comes up, one day. Easy as can be. BUT, on the other hand when "in the beginning" God created the heavens and the earth, we have no time line to let us know how much time passed before He said "Let there be light." Millions of years? Maybe. Then the earth may very well be 100's of millins of years old. But there was no life at that time. (I don't believe anyway.)This message has been edited by Zachariah, 11-01-2004 11:12 PM

Rusty, I believe we were created to glorify God. If He were to use a method of "whatever happens - happens" then that takes away from His glory. I don't recall evolution being mentioned in the bible. I do remember the creation part though. -Z

Why? It seems to me the opposite is true. The guy who sets up the ultimate pool trick shot that sinks all the balls on the break is a lot more "glorious" than the guy who just drops them in the pockets by hand.I think you diminish your God when you insist that he had to micromanage every little detail and keep sticking his hands into the machinery instead of operating in subtlety.

The one doing the pool trick is "glorious" until he finally misses the shot. Then he's just another pool shooter trying to look cool. God doesn't miss. God sets up the "pool shot" through his written word. We are the "balls", sometimes we fall into place and do Gods will and other times we don't. We go our own way and believe in "worldly" ideas. Then you get your "evolution theory" THEORY. Remember it's not prooven, otherwise it wouldn't be a theory it would be a fact. I don't diminish anything God did, and I don't believe that He micromanages anything to the extent you refer. Does He help out or answer prayers sometimes....sure. But we are not puppets or He wouldn't get the glory of us His creations studying and trying to know him better or do as He has instructed.This message has been edited by Zachariah, 11-01-2004 11:38 PMThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 11-01-2004 11:40 PM