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Author | Topic: A Beginning on Topic Genesis | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
tamijudah Inactive Member |
thanks I am doing the debate at 4 oclock today. i hope we do well and i will let you know if i win or loss. thanks tamijudah
------------------tami judah
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leetchd Inactive Member |
Assuming that we say that the flood was non-violent, we do not have to worry about the geologic column. The geologic column occures in only one place on earth, a school text book. If we assumed that the flood was violent, we have just ruled out any chance for a geologic column because a violent flood mixes the layers of the earth. Neither type of flood can give us the geologic column but scince the geologic column does not exist, it is a mute point.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
leetchd writes:
quote: Someone's been reading an ICR pamphlet. Despite the claims of the ICR, you can actually go to many places on earth and actually find the entire geologic column in a single place. In the US, you can go to North Dakota:
The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood You can go from the Tertiary at 100 feet down all the way back to Pre-Cambrian at 14,945 feet. The link above lists other places where there is a complete geologic column. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5058 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Rhain,
Is it not true, and I know from experinence by attempting based on molluscu shell form and number in layers approaching the lake behind Utica NY, that indeed there are difficulties AS SOON as one tries to relate the APPEARENCE OF CONTINUTIY between layers IN A LOCAL PLACE and forms of "fossils" ALREADY IN THE LAYERS? Gould KNOWS this to be an issue and he deals with it in a proablistic way. So unless one WILL NOT DISCUSS h o w the critters CAME TO BE IN ANY GEOLOGICAL HORIZION one can not say with difintiveness what "place" means on the EARTH with respect to PRESENT DISTRIBTION OF ORGANISMS. If one *wishes* to imagine all kinds of extra terrestrial orgnic impacts affecting any *explosion* (data @ Cambrian) of Boscovich's infinite tenacity of shape then indeed the discontinuous formations of forms can be "logicaly" explained but this strains the natural historians sense of phenomenology that seeks CONCURRENTLY an ecological explaination of some of the continguity AT LEAST. If you have problems with ICR in this regard, try to expand your creationist view to look at how BOTH ecology and Evolution have been dealt with over time it this problem of interpreation becomes less an issue to stake the life and work a student over as really being but something drunk with a bit of ginger added only. Salt and Life etc. I hope this helps. You may have fallen out with the quickness of the MSN pace which indeed turns faster than I care to keep up with. But when I have something new I try let others know.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
It sounds like you want to point out the flaws in the biblical account as part of a debate for evolution.
I don't think that is a very good tactic. It might make it sound like you think the Bible has some value as a scientific text. It doesn't. That doesn't say it doesn't have much value in other ways. You may consider saying something, in your closing statement about the damage that creationists do to the preception of the bible and religion. You should pay more attention to the postitive evidence for evolution. There isn't any alternative scientific idea right now. added by editNuts, I did't pay attention to the dates. How did it go? [This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-07-2003]
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
In the fourth month, the ark became lodged in the mountains of Ararat. Therefore the plants at the tops of the mountains could have had up to five months of growth by the time Noah released the dove. You really have to think about these things before you go making up individual ad hoc explanations for each question. If the ark was lodged in the mountains and there was dry land for the trees to grow in why did Noah have to send out a dove to see if there was any dry land. You'd think someone would have noticed it under them or nearby.
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Orion Inactive Member |
I am a 16 year-old fixing to do a debate on evolution/creation. Any ideas would be great
TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4085 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Ned, I will try to remember to mention to Tami that you asked how the debate went. There were six debates, and Tami was in only one of them, and now I can't remember the particulars of hers as it was six weeks ago.
I agree with your statement about focusing on the evidence. I was the teacher, and I suggested to the kids that they dismiss the issue of what the Bible says about evolution with a simple "says who?" It's a relatively small segment of Christians who say that the early parts of Genesis must be taken literally. To say that some people who read the Bible think it says the earth is 10,000 years old or less is hardly strong evidence for a young earth. It's not even strong evidence that the Christian God believes in a young earth. Of course, we're in an unusual situation. The audience was our village, which would consist of people with a pretty strong faith in the Scriptures, but with widely varying views of its literalness and inerrancy, and even varying views of whether there ought to be a canon and which books should be included in it. The audience would have leaned in the evolution direction, although it was 100% very committed theists, or they wouldn't be living in our village. With that audience, you can't really dismiss the Scriptures, but neither do you have to sit back and let someone tell you Genesis is literal.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4085 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Oh, I can give a general answer about how the debates went. We did three debates the first week in a sort of high school format, with intro speeches, a question and answer section, then rebuttals. The second week, we did the last three debates in more of a talk show format. One side got to give a short, general presentation of their view point, then their was open discussion, with a moderator interrupting or asking questions as necessary. At some point, up to the moderator's discretion, the other side would give a short presentation, and then the discussion was re-opened.
The second way was definitely more fun, in my opinion. The kids' opponents were three of the parents, myself and two other dads. One dad is really an antievolutionist, one is undecided, and I am a staunch believer in evolution, because I'm still irritated about being purposely deceived by those who think the Almighty needs people to defend him. The kids had six teams of two, each of which debated once. The other two dads and I had to debate twice, once each week. The first week I avoided having to pretend at all by simply making the case that a lot of scientists don't believe in evolution. I made great use of John Baumgardner's credentials, and I tried to keep the kids away from the physical evidence. Unfortunately, I think I did a pretty good job, which is their fault. When they got on the geologic column, I swiftly and adeptly turned them to a different point they had made about Chinese history going back to 3500 BC. I told them the Septuagint gives older dates for the flood (it does), and so the flood could have happened just before 3500 BC, which would explain why Chinese history starts at that point. Then I kept them on that point and off the geologic column. Some of our audience noticed me dodging the geologic column (and thus thought I did poorly), but most were captivated (even if also bored) by the credentials of all the creation scientists I listed. I even resorted to a little bit of quote mining (blush). I remember that debate well. The antievolutionist dad did pretty well, in my opinion, because he's very smart, and he did his homework well on creationist sites. The audience thought he lost both his debates, anyway, but I would have thought he won both. I'm not sure why the discrepancy in viewpoints. It may have been my desire to see the kids do well, so I was looking for the best and missed the good in them. My favorite one, though, was my two youngest and least confident students, who slaughtered the third dad. He told me later that he meant to get away from the flood, because he wasn't prepared much on it, but they sucked him into it, and he looked as unprepared as he was. They, on the other hand, were pretty well prepared, and made a great case from the progression that could be seen in the geologic column, including a wonderful point about just how the flood managed to sort ammonites--a shelled creature found from the Devonion through, uh...oh, oh, I forgot this one...to the Cretaceous, I think--by the complexity of the sutures between their gas chambers, since their size and shape stay basically the same throughout all those layers. They also did a good job with the 15,000 layers of shale and sand in the Hammond beds in Texas and with some research they did on corals. I was real proud of them.
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Newborn Inactive Member |
Hey,who said the leaf was alive?
A flood didnt cause a "quantum anihillation"LOL
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
'You really have to think about these things before you go making up individual ad hoc explanations for each question. If the ark was lodged in the mountains and there was dry land for the trees to grow in why did Noah have to send out a dove to see if there was any dry land. You'd think someone would have noticed it under them or nearby.'
actually i have researched this , i know its myown interpretation but here goes: first of all the time of the beginning of the flood , Noah is : 'And Noah was six hundred years oldwhen the flood of waters was upon the earth'.i qoute this because you can work off his age. 'and the ark rested in the seventh month the seventeenth day of the month upon the mountains of ararat' Now us creationists cannot fob you off with saying he sent the dove out on the seventh month. however it says in genesis after the first 40 days he sent out the dove,it is not precise it just says after,but the gap between th end of the 40 days and the seventh month is six months as it says Noah was six hundred years old at the beginning of the 40 days , so this could have been (the dove)anytime within the six months between the end of the rain and it coming to rest on ararat. As for the gap of one week between the dove not finding a leaf and finding one,well it simply could have not found a leaf the first time ,so the question of the dove is not in fact a major problem. hope this clears it up for you [This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-15-2003] [This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-15-2003]
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
dear Tamijudah please read my message to nosyned,message 26
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-15-2003]
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John Inactive Member |
Mike, the point is that the dove plucked a leaf off of a living olive tree after everything not on the ark had been killed. I put most of my ideas concerning this in another topic.
EvC Forum: Question about this so called World Wide Flood. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
how do you know if it was living , and if it was then the real question is how long does a small olive take to grow,personally i dont know but there was definately a six month gap as message 26 says.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
'after everything not on the ark had been killed'
everything breathing remember,it doesn't mention plants .
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