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Author Topic:   Is this Bible verse about believers and poison to be taken literally?
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 76 of 142 (203365)
04-28-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
04-28-2005 10:58 AM


Some questions
You say that schraf is interpreting the passage to mean "all Christians". She says she is not. Sorry, in this case, I have to take her at her word.
You use the context of the Bible to understand the passage to mean that not all Christians will be able to do these things. You also have said that these things happen now according to God's will. Where? Any specific instances come to mind?
Several here say that Christians shouldn't do these things to prove God because that is tempting Him. The why did Jesus, Elisha, Paul and Peter do just that? They each healed someone by the laying on of hands. Were they wrong? If so, why did those people recover? Why does Paul state that the sick should go to the elders to be healed? Is Paul trying to get the elders in trouble with God?
You see, MY understanding of Mark 16, when taken in Biblical context of a loving God whose prophets and apostles go around healing people, is that it means exactly what the words state. No adding or interpreting necessary.
Frankly, I am very unclear of the context that you use to get the meaning that you claim is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 10:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 12:43 PM LinearAq has replied
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:59 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 142 (203366)
04-28-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PecosGeorge
04-28-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Temptation
Drinking poison, throwing yourself off the temple, etc., comes under the same heading as tempting God.
How so? God said, "knock yourself out, I got your back"!
Here is Christ's response to the temptor who tempts him to tempt God.
Wouldn't there be a bit of a difference between God saying "Don't worry, I'll save you" and the Devil saying, "don't worry, God'll save you"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-28-2005 10:36 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 142 (203372)
04-28-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by LinearAq
04-28-2005 11:58 AM


Re: Some questions
quote:
You say that schraf is interpreting the passage to mean "all Christians". She says she is not. Sorry, in this case, I have to take her at her word.
She said she doesn't take it "literally." I'll never figure out what she thinks she means so I've given up. She certainly has been saying it applies to "ALL" Christians. That's what this dispute is all about.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-28-2005 12:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 11:58 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 2:52 PM Faith has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 79 of 142 (203403)
04-28-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
04-28-2005 12:43 PM


Back to "Some questions"
Ok, perhaps her questions give you the impression that she feels that all Christians should be able to do all those things. How about we modify it to mean that some of them should be able to.
Where are these "greater things", according to the Christ, that His followers are supposed to be doing? I would be happy with just one out of the more than one billion Christians having enough "faith" to heal the sick, or drink poison with no effect, or raise one dead person, or show that prayer actually does "availeth much" when fervently applied by a "righteous man". Unless I am mistaken, these things are not prohibited by any Bible verse and seem to be encouraged. Yet...they don't seem to happen except for anecdotal reports from "remote places".
I apologize if my tone is overly direct. I am just interested if you could explain your interpretation of the passage. What support from the Bible do you have for that interpretation? I did not really follow how you supported it the last time and would really appreciate a "Bible for dummies" version of the connections that you made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 12:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:12 PM LinearAq has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 80 of 142 (203443)
04-28-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PecosGeorge
04-28-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Temptation
PecosGeorge
Thought I might share the following with you, before I boogie again. Drinking poison, throwing yourself off the temple, etc., comes under the same heading as tempting God
The phrase concerning poison is purported to have been spoken by Christ to his disciples yet you say to do so is to tempt god yet his son said it was okay. HMM, I must say here that I think you believing Christians{my apologies to Phatboy and jar} are twisting the facts to avoid the obvious truth that to follow the test of faith Christ himself declared to be within the power of those who have faith is suicide plain and simple.
The reason you do not attempt such has nothing to do with tempting god and everything to do with knowing that such a thing is not possible regardless of the level of faith.I think Christ would say you were a hypocrite.

And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-28-2005 10:36 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:05 PM sidelined has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 142 (203450)
04-28-2005 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by sidelined
04-28-2005 6:49 PM


Re: Temptation
The phrase concerning poison is purported to have been spoken by Christ to his disciples yet you say to do so is to tempt god yet his son said it was okay. HMM, I must say here that I think you believing Christians{my apologies to Phatboy and jar} are twisting the facts to avoid the obvious truth that to follow the test of faith Christ himself declared to be within the power of those who have faith is suicide plain and simple.
The reason you do not attempt such has nothing to do with tempting god and everything to do with knowing that such a thing is not possible regardless of the level of faith.I think Christ would say you were a hypocrite.
Pecos George is correct. You are doing the twisting, and in a very persistent, even belligerent way. Jesus said these signs shall FOLLOW them. It's a prediction of God's powers that will attend the preaching of the gospel in the world. These powers will be GIVEN when danger occurs, but we are NEVER to do something to put ourselves in danger, aas Jesus himself said back to the devil when the devil told him to prove He was the Son of God by jumping off a high building -- can't do that, that is tempting God. So Jesus would never teach anyone to tempt God by putting himself in danger. Unless of course you want to call Him a hypocrite, and maybe you do by the sound of it.
Anyway, those signs DID follow those who spread the gospel, as already proved by various postings on this thread. Paul survived the bite of a deadly snake -- he didn't seek out the snake, the snake just bit him. And the first Christians had the various supernatural gifts distributed among them that Jesus says will follow the believers in Mark 16.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by sidelined, posted 04-28-2005 6:49 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by CK, posted 04-28-2005 7:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 90 by sidelined, posted 04-28-2005 11:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 95 by nator, posted 04-29-2005 7:37 AM Faith has replied
 Message 100 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-29-2005 2:11 PM Faith has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 82 of 142 (203452)
04-28-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
04-28-2005 7:05 PM


Re: Temptation
Everything seems to be avoiding my question - so if I feed poison to a "true" christian (without their knowledge) then they should be protected from it's effects? They are not trying to tempt their god, so what is the problem?
Are we really saying that God will remove that protect to avoid my testing of his power? Is that not like the insurance company pulling your cover because a burglar really mean to steal your stuff?
This has been wide implications if you think about it. it suggests the presense of non-belief or the actions of a non-believer can negate the promises of God.
This message has been edited by General Krull, 28-Apr-2005 07:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 142 (203454)
04-28-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by LinearAq
04-28-2005 2:52 PM


Re: Back to "Some questions"
Where are these "greater things", according to the Christ, that His followers are supposed to be doing? I would be happy with just one out of the more than one billion Christians having enough "faith" to heal the sick, or drink poison with no effect, or raise one dead person, or show that prayer actually does "availeth much" when fervently applied by a "righteous man". Unless I am mistaken, these things are not prohibited by any Bible verse and seem to be encouraged. Yet...they don't seem to happen except for anecdotal reports from "remote places".
I apologize if my tone is overly direct. I am just interested if you could explain your interpretation of the passage. What support from the Bible do you have for that interpretation? I did not really follow how you supported it the last time and would really appreciate a "Bible for dummies" version of the connections that you made.
If you've read my posts I really can't understand what you're not getting. The gifts of these powers were given for those Jesus sent out to take the gospel to the world. The gifts occurred in the early church abundantly -- all the congregations had people with various gifts and even more gifts than Jesus named, as has been posted here. After the gospel was established the supernatural gifts were no longer needed. When they are needed He gives them.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-28-2005 07:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 2:52 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 10:49 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 96 by nator, posted 04-29-2005 7:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 142 (203461)
04-28-2005 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by CK
04-28-2005 7:11 PM


Re: if you fed poison to Christians
Everything seems to be avoiding my question - so if I feed poison to a "true" christian (without their knowledge) then they should be protected from it's effects?
Most likely not. God might prevent you from doing it though and you'd never recognize that as a supernatural intervention.
Why wouldn't He if He didn't? The reason for the supernatural gifts isn't really for the sake of the Christians, it is for the sake of the unbelievers. The gifts are not given as cheap magic tricks as you all seem to be thinking. They were to be a persuasion to unbelievers -- not the aggressive kind of unbelievers on this site I'm afraid, but the sincere pagans who knew nothing but the paganism of the ancient world.
And that's why He will also give such gifts occasionally even now in remote parts of the world where they have never heard the gospel. Would you consider it a supernatural intervention that a KGB officer who was about to club a Christian woman over the head found his arm frozen in mid-air when she asked God to forgive him? Or would you just scoff at that as at so much else on this subject? That particular supernatural intervention happened to this young man in the 70s and it was one of a series of events that made him a Christian. But you'd probably just scoff at it. Actually you'd most likely scoff at somebody's surviving poison too, accuse them of some kind of deviousness. You'd find some other explanation for it than God's specific personal intervention -- one of those more "parsimonious" type explanations that are popular here.
Many Christians have had supernatural interventions of a very personal sort in our lives, for our own needs, not as a witness to anyone, and some have even been mentioned here in other threads. They don't mean anything to you so why should healings or protection from poison mean anything? After all, if you think hard enough you can probably come up with a naturalistic alternative, maybe a stretchy one, but it would convince you more easily than anything supernatural would.
This isn't about a lack of faith, it's about God's purposes, and He doesn't cater to whim or rude challenges. If he does such things it's out of mercy toward somebody who really does need the help.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-28-2005 08:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 89 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 11:16 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 142 (203471)
04-28-2005 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by LinearAq
04-28-2005 11:58 AM


Re: Some questions
Several here say that Christians shouldn't do these things to prove God because that is tempting Him. The why did Jesus, Elisha, Paul and Peter do just that? They each healed someone by the laying on of hands. Were they wrong?
Healing doesn't involve tempting God. Putting oneself in danger such as by drinking poison and handling snakes involve tempting God.
If so, why did those people recover? Why does Paul state that the sick should go to the elders to be healed? Is Paul trying to get the elders in trouble with God?
Could you explain something to me please? If you really aren't getting things nobody minds explaining them, but the kinds of questions we keep getting here don't seem serious. Like this one. How did you get the idea that HEALING was tempting God? Nobody has said this and it makes no sense. Are you just not thinking? I'm serious. Are you just asking questions without thinking things through or what?
You see, MY understanding of Mark 16, when taken in Biblical context of a loving God whose prophets and apostles go around healing people, is that it means exactly what the words state. No adding or interpreting necessary.
Nobody has added a thing except you. It means what it says only you read it adding things into it that aren't there and you aren't interested in finding out anything about what Jesus means by it, you're happy with the first thing that occurs to you about what it means. What actually happened in the first-century churches fits what Jesus said would happen, but you insist something ELSE should have happened -- we should be able to practice these gifts NOW.
Frankly, I am very unclear of the context that you use to get the meaning that you claim is true.
I'm doing my best to clarify, that's all I can say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by LinearAq, posted 04-28-2005 11:58 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 86 of 142 (203494)
04-28-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
04-28-2005 7:37 PM


Re: if you fed poison to Christians
Far more convincing than halting a KGB clubbing might be God sending a cure for His-created malaria, thus saving 15,000,000 young children a year so they can go on to grow up and experience free will, repent and be saved, Having no choice in the matter sorta destroys the image of a loving god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:37 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by mick, posted 04-28-2005 9:38 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 87 of 142 (203505)
04-28-2005 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Nighttrain
04-28-2005 9:11 PM


Re: if you fed poison to Christians
Nighttrain writes:
Far more convincing than halting a KGB clubbing might be God sending a cure for His-created malaria, thus saving 15,000,000 young children a year
Faith writes:
The reason for the supernatural gifts isn't really for the sake of the Christians, it is for the sake of the unbelievers. The gifts are not given as cheap magic tricks as you all seem to be thinking. They were to be a persuasion to unbelievers -- not the aggressive kind of unbelievers on this site I'm afraid, but the sincere pagans who knew nothing but the paganism of the ancient world. And that's why He will also give such gifts occasionally even now in remote parts of the world where they have never heard the gospel
Nighttrain, I hope you now understand that it is the young childrens' fault, for not being pagan (or sincere) enough.
If faith is right, and God only shows his mercy (rarely) to those who have never been exposed to the Gospel, we have to wonder why Christian evangelists exist. If only they would shut up, we would all be blissfully ignorant, and would therfore be subject to God's mercy. If I ever get malaria, I'm going to blame Faith.
This message has been edited by mick, 04-28-2005 09:39 PM
This message has been edited by mick, 04-28-2005 09:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 88 of 142 (203522)
04-28-2005 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
04-28-2005 7:12 PM


Re: Back to "Some questions"
faith writes:
The gifts of these powers were given for those Jesus sent out to take the gospel to the world. The gifts occurred in the early church abundantly -- all the congregations had people with various gifts and even more gifts than Jesus named, as has been posted here. After the gospel was established the supernatural gifts were no longer needed.
Ok so these "gifts" are no longer needed for Christians today?
Certainly in Mark 16:16, Jesus is telling His disciples to preach to the world. This is the Great Commission which many in the Church consider as an order for all Christians. However, Mark 16:17 and 18 refer to those that believe. I don't see a time qualification in either passage. Therefore, that time limitation must be somewhere in the context from which you determined your understanding of the passage.
What passages or group of passages helped you determine that there was a time limit on these gifts?
Does this time limit apply to all the gifts mentioned in Mark 16:17 and 18?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 89 of 142 (203528)
04-28-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
04-28-2005 7:37 PM


Re: if you fed poison to Christians
Faith writes:
This isn't about a lack of faith, it's about God's purposes, and He doesn't cater to whim or rude challenges. If he does such things it's out of mercy toward somebody who really does need the help.
And those who don't believe, whether beligerent or not, don't need His help? You just said that the miracles are for unbelievers. You then qualified the type of believer that they were for and I do not see the Biblical justification for that qualification. Could you provide me with the passage or groups of passages that have led you to this limitation on the type of unbeliever that gets to see the miracles or gifts?
Well, these unbelievers are all around you. God does know what it takes for some to believe. Thomas required visual proof and was told that he didn't rank as high as those who believed without seeing. However, I bet he will be in heaven...his personal limitations won't keep him out. Why are the people here any different than Thomas? Do they deserve less than Thomas because they have the same limitations? Because they can't bring themselves to believe without some sort of proof?
KGB eh? So, I guess there is no time limit on the gifts. Kinda throws out most of my last post. Perhaps the limitation is that He only provides those gifts in locations where the people are more credulous than those on this board. Something about that arrangement just doesn't feel quite like the right answer. Maybe I will understand better after you help me out with the question above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 04-29-2005 1:03 AM LinearAq has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 90 of 142 (203531)
04-28-2005 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
04-28-2005 7:05 PM


Re: Temptation
Faith
Jesus said these signs shall FOLLOW them. It's a prediction of God's powers that will attend the preaching of the gospel in the world.
No.These signs shall foolow them that believe "In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
And how do you determine whether they have drunk any deadly thing?
In this other verse we get a different take on the capabilities of faith
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Now if you were to say unto a mountain remove hence to yonder do you seriously think that such would occur?Let me repeat the last sentence loudly.AND NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU.
Is there something that is vague and obtuse about the sentence?It says NOTHING...SHALL...BE...IMPOSSIBLE...FOR...YOU. Not Paul, not Christ, not anyone else,YOU.
Do something impossible.Do not give me the hackneyed excuse that you are tempting god.Satan is not involved.JESUS CHRIST said this is possible.Are you denying this?Please explain why he would lie and say such a thing if it was not a fact.Instead of giving me the run around do something impossible.
Let me help you.Pick any outstanding natural feature of the region you live in and irrevocably alter it so that it is utterly against the laws of physics in the same vein as Christ's example of a mountain.Live up to your forum name and remember it need only be the size of a mustard seed ok.
Oh and unless there is some misunderstanding on definition mustard seeds are really small.

And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 04-28-2005 7:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
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