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Author Topic:   Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 46 of 114 (787306)
07-09-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICANT
07-09-2016 3:32 AM


Don't forget Jesus, James, Apostles, etc. used the Septuagint.
quote:
12He has calmed the sea with his might, and by his wisdom the whale has been overthrown.
13And the barriers of heaven fear him, and by a command he has slain the apostate dragon.
You might like the King James and its translation (you quoted it in #42, and rested upon it's text)
quote:
Job writes:
26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
You prefer the latter (the 1611 King James), the 1st century Jews (like Jesus and his followers) prefered the former.
The Rabbinical commentaries were also on the side of the modern scholars translations and 1st century Jews.
The scholars look at the uses in the entire Bible anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2016 3:32 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2016 3:47 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 47 of 114 (787313)
07-09-2016 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
07-09-2016 3:38 AM


Pat mentioned religions that influenced Judaism and especially Christianity.
It is an interesting issue, and one that needs further research. Archaeological digs hopefully can discover much in Iran, Pakistan, and India. Much has been destroyed by changer water courses and the construction of dams. The sad fact is that civilization lived along the waterways and they have been changing course, destroying underground ruins that probably contained countless precious texts - now destroyed. Dams have been a nightmare for those who want to see some impressive discoveries. Permanent destruction that is just terrible - priceless and irreplaceable treasures (like texts) gone forever and never able to be discovered and learned from.
When Egypt, Iran, Turkey, etc. needed to build dams to help their economic situation, it is sad that we were spending our billions of $$ on bombs instead of offering compensation projects in return for not building dams. Nice if we would have funded archaeological research.
It would seem a no-brainer to build solar plants in Egypt for example. Give them billions of $$ to fund solar projects instead of building a dam. Too late for that.
Anyway.
The issue Phat raised.
From wikipedia
quote:
Dragon or serpent[edit]
Further information: Chaoskampf
One common myth among almost all Indo-European mythologies is a battle ending with a hero or god slaying a serpent or dragon of some sort (Watkins 1995).
Zeus vs. Typhon, Kronos vs. Ophion, Apollo vs. Python, Heracles vs. the Hydra and Ladon, Perseus vs. Ceto, and Bellerophon vs. the Chimera in Greek mythology;
Thor vs. Jrmungandr, Sigurd vs. Fafnir and Beowulf vs. the dragon in Germanic mythology;
Indra vs. Vrtra in the Rigveda;
Krishna vs. Kāliyā in the Bhagavata Purana;
Fereydun, and later Garshasp, vs. Zahhak in Zoroastrianism and Persian mythology;
Perun vs. Veles, Dobrynya Nikitich vs. Zmey in Slavic mythology;
Făt-Frumos vs. Zmeu in Folklore of Romania
Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka of Hittite mythology;
Proto-Indo-European mythology - Wikipedia
The Hindu story is actually from the Rigveda.
quote:
Rigveda is one of the oldest extant texts in any Indo-European language.[13] Philological and linguistic evidence indicate that the Rigveda was composed in the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500—1200 BC,[14][15][16] though a wider approximation of c. 1700—1100 BC has also been given.[17][18][note 1]
Rigveda - Wikipedia
The issue came up earlier as to whether other stories are actually ancient.
This is of an undisputed pre-1000 BCE age. Older than pretty much the entire Bible.
Here is an interesting reference, related to what we have been discussing
From the google cache
quote:
Some rabbinical texts equate Leviathan with Tiamat, the primordial cosmic dragon as ... Leviathan's portrayal also parallels that of the earlier Ugaritic Lotan (or ... In the Hindu myths, Sesa-Ananta is the thousand-headed dragon who is older ...
Here is the google book link.
Encyclopedia of Earth Myths: An Insider's A-Z Guide to Mythic People, Places ... - Richard Leviton - Google Books
This is the title
Encyclopedia of Earth Myths: An Insider's A-Z Guide to Mythic People, Places ...
By Richard Leviton
We have to deal with the documents and evidence we have, not what we should have had by now.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 48 of 114 (787315)
07-09-2016 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LamarkNewAge
07-09-2016 1:03 PM


Re: Don't forget Jesus, James, Apostles, etc. used the Septuagint.
Hi LNA
LNA writes:
You prefer the latter (the 1611 King James), the 1st century Jews (like Jesus and his followers) prefered the former.
I prefer the Hebrew text. The KJV translation is the best English translation we have today, as it is truer to the original text.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-09-2016 1:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-09-2016 4:05 PM ICANT has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 49 of 114 (787316)
07-09-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ICANT
07-09-2016 3:47 PM


Re: Don't forget Jesus, James, Apostles, etc. used the Septuagint.
I'm sure the 1611 Englishmen knew so much more about the Hebrew text than the Septuagint translators. The Septuagint dates back from 150-200 BCE (and tradition puts it close to 300 BCE) and it was a translation by Jews in the extreme part of northern Egypt, not far from Palestine.
The King James translators though that Pharoh Necho II of Egypt was fighting the Assyrians when their ignorance of the language prevented them from seeing that he was helping Assyrians. Remember the death of Josiah?
No modern translation makes that same mistake.

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 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2016 3:47 PM ICANT has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 50 of 114 (787318)
07-09-2016 4:42 PM


Since people want to cherry pick translations, I have a question.
Jar didn't like my use of the NRSV so he went cherry-picking (while accusing me of what he was doing) and his examples were always the early English translations.
ICANT thinks the King James is the last word because it was somehow pristine or something.
I always have used the Septuagint as a response, because it is old old old for a translation.
However I never really commented on the implications of the areas where it differs from the scholars translations.
quote:
12He has calmed the sea with his might, and by his wisdom the whale has been overthrown.
13And the barriers of heaven fear him, and by a command he has slain the apostate dragon.
It is very solid ancient testimony that Rahab was a water creature and not "pride" as the KJV translates things.
It is solid evidence that there was a slaying of the serpent from verse 13 and not a making of the serpent as the KJV has it.
But what about the "barriers of heaven fear him" part? Why so different.
Because the Septuagint uses different Hebrew texts (than the KJV) as its source. The original Job text might have been a different one than what the KJV uses. And it could have been the LXX type as we see here.
So how does the issue of "barriers of heaven" stack up to the point I am trying to make?
Remember that Tehom in Genesis 1 was split up to make up the "firmament" that was a barrier between outer space and our earthly atmosphere, and what we know to be outer space was what the Bible describes as the "waters above" being divided from the "waters below" (the whole world was water below the firmament till dry land appeared).
Tehom is this
quote:
Illustrated dictionary of the bible
HERBERT LOCKYER, SR., EDITOR
with F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison
( Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986)
p.293
DEEP, THE-a vast space, expanse, or abyss. He term is used in Scripture in several ways. The first use occurs in Genesis 1:2: The earth was without form, and void, and darkness was on the face of the deep (Gen. 1:2). The word may refer in this phrase to the chaos existing at creation, or it may indicate the vast expanse of waters which covered the earth at creation (Ps. 104:6; Prov. 8:28).
It is parallel to Tiamat AND parallel to Rahab both!
From the same fundamentalist dictionary
quote:
ibid. p898
RAHAB THE DRAGON [RAY hab] (agitated)-a mythological sea monster or dragon representing the evil forces of chaos that God subdued by His creative power.
....
God’s smiting of Rahab is described in Job 26:12 (NIV) to signify God’s power over the chaos of primeval waters at the Creation. The NKJV translates as the storm for Rahab.
Got that? Rahab is" representing the evil forces of chaos" and "chaos of primeval waters " while Tehom/DEEP is "chaos existing at creation, or it may indicate the vast expanse of waters which covered the earth at creation".
Got it? Fundamentalist scholarship.
Now Tiamat in Enuma Elish.
quote:
136. While he divided the flesh of the ..., and devised a cunning plan.
137. He split her up like a flat fish into two halves;
138. One half of her he stablished as a covering for heaven.
139. He fixed a bolt, he stationed a watchman,
140. And bade them not to let her waters come forth.
141. He passed through the heavens, he surveyed the regions (thereof),
Sounds like "the barriers of heaven", doesn't it?
Fits even better with the context!
And this is the textual type that Jesus, James, and the Apostles used.

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 51 of 114 (787324)
07-09-2016 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by LamarkNewAge
07-09-2016 11:56 AM


Re: ICANT and his Hebrew lesson.
Hi LNA
LNA writes:
Then
"THEN" does not answer the question, of where did you get Rahab from? You do not get it from the meaning of רהב which is what is in the Hebrew text.
LNA writes:
I prefer to let scripture define scripture.
No, you choose to believe what someone tells you the scripture says.
LNA writes:
The so-called "formed" translation of the KJV is is chll.
The Hebrew word translated formed in Job 26:13 and the Hebrew word translated wounded in Psalm 109:22 are two different words.
LNA writes:
The "coiling serpent" of Is. 27:1 is Hebrew nchs 'qllt
Why quote the worst translation ever since the New World Tranalation.
LNA writes:
The scholars seem to be allowing the scripture to define the scripture,
What scholars are you talking about?
All the creation stories and flood stories came from the same source. The actual events. Stories were changed, modified,and embellished.
The one Moses wrote about was given to him by God during the 80 days and nights they were together in Mount Sinai. Moses may have been privileged to even view those events, just a possibility.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-09-2016 11:56 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-09-2016 8:03 PM ICANT has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 52 of 114 (787326)
07-09-2016 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
07-09-2016 7:16 PM


Re: ICANT and his Hebrew lesson.
quote:
where did you get Rahab from? You do not get it from the meaning of which is what is in the Hebrew text.
It is in various places in the scripture.
Not just one place.
And the Septuagint doesn't agree with you.
These are ancient Jews who translated the LXX.
quote:
you choose to believe what someone tells you the scripture says.
This coming from the person who has essentially anointed a bunch of Englishmen from 1611 as the representatives of divine revelation.
quote:
The Hebrew word translated formed in Job 26:13 and the Hebrew word translated wounded in Psalm 109:22 are two different words.
I admit that I was squinting to see the Hebrew characters, but they looked the same to me.
Then you responded to me saying:
"The "coiling serpent" of Is. 27:1 is Hebrew nchs 'qllt"
Your response was
quote:
Why quote the worst translation ever since the New World Tranalation.
Amazing that you ignored the Hebrew transliteration - the actual issue of my post. And I quoted the NIV because it was the first online text I found for Is. 27:1 (computer was going real slow). The translation was almost irrelevant.
I was showing that nchs 'qllt was used for Leviathan exactly as it was used for Job 26:13.
Worry about the parallel.
It means that not only do the endless scriptural references to Rahab (by name!) clearly indicate a sea creature, as opposed to "proud", but the Leviathan verses also are a parallel witness to what we are dealing with when we see the word "Rahab".
Not what the KJV says.
It's what the Bible of Jesus, Paul, James, etc. said. The Jewish Septuagint translators of the 2nd century BCE knew it was an aquatic creature.
They disagree with the Englishmen of 1611 A.D. (that you hold in higher esteem than Jesus it seems).
You then took issue when I said
"The scholars seem to be allowing the scripture to define the scripture"
You said
quote:
What scholars are you talking about?
All the ones I quoted, including the work by scores of leading evangelicals.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 53 of 114 (787328)
07-09-2016 8:22 PM


חָלַל Hebrew word that ICANT & me dispute (and not just the meaning)
From Strong's Hebrew: 2490. (chalal) -- pierce
2490. chalal
Strong's Concordance
chalal: pierce
Original Word: חָלַל
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chalal
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-lal')
Short Definition: pierce
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. חָלַל verb bore, pierce (Arabic perforate, pierce through, transfix, Ethiopic (hollow) read; Aramaic חֲלַל hollow out, חֲלִילָא pipe; adjective hollow, cave, sheath, etc.; Late Hebrew in derivatives חָלָל noun hollow, adjective slain, חָלִיל pipe);
Qal Perfect לִבִּי חָלַל בְּקִרְבִּי my heart is pierced (wounded) within me Psalm 109:22 (? literally one has pierced my heart; or read
Pu`al חֻלַּל ?); Infinitive construct חַלּוֺתִי הִיא Psalm 77:11 it is my piercing, my wound (my woe, my cross; so Ew Hi De Bae MV SS Ki. 341, but Hup Pe Bi Che read חֲלוֺתִי my sickness).
Pi`el Participle plural (Baer) בְּיַד מְחַללֶי֑ךָ Ezekiel 28:9 in the hand of the ones wounding thee (Sm Co read מְחוֺלְלֶ֑ךָ).
Pu`al Participle מְחֻלֲלֵי חֶרֶב pierced by the sword Ezekiel 32:26.
Po`el Perfect3feminine singular חֹלֲלָה יָדוֺ נָחָשׁ בָּרִחַ Job 26:13 his hand pierced the fleeing serpent; Participle feminine מְחוֺלֶלֶת תַּנִּין Isaiah 51:9 who pierced the dragon.
Po`al Participle מֲחֹלָל מִמְּשָׁעֵינוּ Isaiah 53:5 pierced, wounded because of our transgressions (of the servant of ׳י, "" מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵינוּ).
II. [חלל] verb denominative play the pipe, pipe
Qal Participle plural וְשָׁרִים כְּחֹלֲלִים Psalm 87:7 as well the singers as the pipe-players, compare AV; < RV Pe De Che Bae and others
Polel Participle from 1. חוּל dancers.
III. [חָלַל] verb pollute, defile, profane;
more

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 54 of 114 (787346)
07-10-2016 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
07-09-2016 3:38 AM


Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
I just found the larger body of text for the Britannica Zoroastrianism.
Before I get to that, the issue about Zoroastrianism I want to cover.
Here is an example of why the religion must be understood. Just one example.
Remember that even fundamentalists admit that Jews didn't believe in resurrection.
quote:
Resurrection was a late arrival on the scene in classic biblical writing, however. Much of the Hebrew Bible assumes that the dead are in Sheol, which sometimes looks uncomfortably like Hades: The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence (Psalm 115:17). Clear statements of resurrection are extremely rare[2]. Daniel 12 is the most blatant, and remembered as such for centuries afterwards: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). Daniel is, however, the latest book of the Hebrew Bible.
The Resurrection of Resurrection - NTWrightPage
Now the text.
quote:
Indian and Iranian beliefs in the afterlife have many features in common, probably dating back to the Indo-Iranian period: a feminine encounter, a bridge with dogs watching it, a heavenly journey. In the ancient Indian texts, the Upaniṣads, the soul is welcomed in heaven by 500 apsaras (cloud maidens). In Iran the soul meets his own religion (dan) in the form of a beautiful damsel if he has lived justly; otherwise, he meets a hideous hag.
Either before this encounter or after, according to the various texts, the soul must cross a bridge. This, with the young girl and the gods, is attested in India in the Yajurveda and the Upaniṣads. In the Gths it is called the Bridge of the Requiter. It leads the good souls to paradise, but the bad ones fall into hell.
The soul has also to undergo a judgment; it appears before Mithra and his two companions, Sraosha and Rashnu. Finally it ascends through successive stages representing respectively his good thoughts (the stars), good words (the moon), and good deeds (the sun) to the paradise (of infinite lights). In the Veda it is said only that the sojourn of the good deed is beyond the path of the sun. In paradise the soul is led by Vohu Manah, the Good Mind, to the golden throneof Ormazd.
Hell also has, symmetrically, four levels. And there is, for the souls whose good actions exactly balance their evil ones, an intermediate place.
Zoroastrianism | Definition, Beliefs, Founder, Holy Book, & Facts | Britannica
Remember how the very late book of Daniel (no earlier than 500 BCE even according to fundamentalists) introduced the concept of a resurrection?
quote:
NRSV
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky,and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Only mentioned after contact with the Persian Empire.
Interesting issue of influence, and it affected Paul's terminology (and maybe even more than just terms of speech and analogies)
quote:
The Beginning of the Gospel: Probings of Mark in Context
By Adela Yarbro Collins
In other words, they are given celestial bodies, like those of the heavenly beings. That Paul's understanding of resurrection was similar to that expressed in Daniel 12 is supported by Paul's comparison of resurrected bodies to the sun, moon, and stars in 1 Cor 15:40-41. Both Daniel 12 and 1 Corinthians 15 express the notion of resurrection in terms of astral immortality.
The Beginning of the Gospel: Probings of Mark in Context - Adela Yarbro Collins - Google Books
Daniel 12:2-3

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 Message 56 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 11:19 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 55 of 114 (787347)
07-10-2016 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by LamarkNewAge
07-10-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
You use the term "fundamentalist" in very strange ways. N.T. Wright is not a "fundamentalist" by any normal usage of the term. Among conservative Christian (non-fundamentalist) scholars, there are a variety of opinions on the date of Daniel and on belief in the resurrection.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 114 (787349)
07-10-2016 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by LamarkNewAge
07-10-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
Remember that even fundamentalists admit that Jews didn't believe in resurrection.
If "fundamentalist" means uncompromising Bible believer, I don't know any fundamentalists who deny the many references in the New Testament to the Pharisees' belief in the resurrection, as opposed to the Sadducees who denied it, both of them Jewish sects.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-10-2016 5:22 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 11:53 AM Faith has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 57 of 114 (787369)
07-11-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
07-10-2016 11:19 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
The, conservative "Sadducees who denied it" were the majority of the Temple officials.
The evidence seems to be that Zoroastrians influenced the late 2nd Temple Jews and not just with regards to the the astral issues. It is very difficult to imagine that the influence came from Palestine to Persia. Persia influenced Palestine, though there were lots of cross currents over such a long period.
The astral issues seemed relevant to the topic of this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 11:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 6:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 114 (787375)
07-11-2016 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by LamarkNewAge
07-11-2016 11:53 AM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
The Bible is the record followed by "fundamentalists" and there is no deviation from the idea of the resurrection there, which was shared by the Pharisees and not the Sadducees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 11:53 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 7:09 PM Faith has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 59 of 114 (787376)
07-11-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
07-11-2016 6:49 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
But it is not mentioned in the massive Psalms.
Moses didn't mention it (Genesis-Deuteronomy).
There might have been a temporary raising of the dead, but every person soon died. Then no resurrection.
Joshua to Esther didn't mention it.
It just wasn't mentioned.
Only the very late book of Daniel and possibly Isaiah.
It was a late comer.
And the conservative Sadducees who ran the Temple felt the idea of resurrection was contrary to the scripture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 6:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 7:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 63 by kbertsche, posted 07-11-2016 10:23 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 114 (787377)
07-11-2016 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by LamarkNewAge
07-11-2016 7:09 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
It was also not mentioned until Revelation that the true identity of the serpent in Eden was Satan, but of course he was Satan even if that wasn't mentioned in Genesis. When a concept appears in scripture has nothing to do with some supposed progression of ideas. There is "progressive revelation" but that's about when God chooses to reveal something, not about when the idea originated. That's not how scripture is understood by us fundamentalists at least. The Sadducees simply have no authoritative standing in scripture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 7:09 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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