Conversion to atheism

`Frain not, Shaz. Most groups from mainline to splinter to fundy, submerge the individual perspective. You toe the line, or you get the boot.Whether the device is baptism, communion, Bar Mitzvah, or whatever the confirmation ceremony that particular belief calls for, the entrant/convert has to swear to uphold the principles of that belief or not be accepted.

Hi Zawinul:I thought I would offer my perspective to your topic, because I was an atheist. What you hold to be true is not necessarily true for me, i.e. me - that vase is blue, colour blind person - that vase is green, interior decorator - that vase is aqua. Does that mean that any of these statements are not true, accurate, or without flaw?
As for that which can be demonstrated by scientific logic, then yes I certainly think that should be made available to all and sundry regardless of their belief, but optionally not mandatory. Personally I don't believe it is right to try and take anything from someone who needs what they have, no matter how honourable your motive is. If one does it may result in serious health, and welfare ramifications for the individual. (if you need me to cite examples I will, once I have some sleep )Therefore to attempt any conversion of anything, without offering something of equal measure, would lead me to question the motives of the converter. This is an interesting question for me. I was an atheist/agnostic, until I was 24. I did not grow up in a Christian home, nor have any Christian teachings. At 24 though I died, and was resuscitated in the literal sense. From that moment on, I knew there was more. I believed in 'a God' then, which suited me, because I had something to blame for all of the atrocities in the world. No-one tried to convert me, or lead me to Christ, or anything of the kind. When I was 27 though I became a Christian of my own free will.So in relation to your question, the benefits of atheism, I don't necessarily believe there are any. I have the knowledge that atheists have, i.e. inaccuracies in the Bible, hypocritical bible toting people who initiate war. Atheists have to accept full responsibility for their actions, but so too do Christians. Just because I believe in God does not make me any the less accountable for what I do.So in summary, I don't believe, no in fact I will state that I know atheism cannot offer me more. I have been there, and I know first hand that I have more this side of the fence. Mind you I should add I am not your 'classical' Christian. I also have no problem if anyone wants to challenge me on what I have shared, though it is of a personal nature. I do know all about the chemicals in the brain, and delusional concepts, factual things, which for a long time reconciled my experience with my logic. Now I know that logic, is only limited by my ability to be open to knowledge, and experiences. There is so much more, than what we can even begin to comprehend with our human logic.Shaz

quote:

---

There is so much more, than what we can even begin to comprehend with our human logic.

---

How do you know it is there?

Me. Where else would I be? Sex. Ultimately, death, but before that it's up to you.I don't understand how a cosmic post-death singles mixer in the sky somehow answers those questions any better. Who we are and what we do is ultimately up to us; we define our own purposes no matter what we believe.Compared to the scary world of unimpeachable superbeings offered by theists like you, I find atheism quite comforting. It's a relief to know that my efforts to do good in the world will be opposed only by other humans, not by the personification of evil with powers unopposable by mortals.You can't be "converted" to the truth. You either find it, or you reject it. Why bother? False by examination. Atheists break less laws and have better marriages than theists. When we do the right thing, we do it because it's right, not because God told us to. Clearly, we're just that much more moral than people like you.

Efficient? Hardly.I'd venture to say that most people don't become atheists until college, at least. The public schools are hardly churning out the atheists, if my experience is any indication. And yes, I had the same curriculum as you. For all your agonized, sweaty-palm agitation about science birthing atheists, it doesn't seem to really happen, now does it? Certainly not with the efficiency that your churches turn out believers. Materialism = atheism? How does that work?If I play Monopoly, and we play it strictly "materialist", where the rules don't make any mention of God, are we playing atheist Monopoly? If I have coffee, and the label doesn't mention God as the origin of the beans, am I drinking atheist coffee?Or isn't it at least possible that there might, just might, be situations in which the existence or qualities of your god might not be relevant?

"What you hold to be true is not necessarily true for me, i.e. me - that vase is blue, colour blind person - that vase is green, interior decorator - that vase is aqua. Does that mean that any of these statements are not true, accurate, or without flaw?" - ShazAs far as I know, outside the human perception, the vase is only one colour. The same could be said of a lot of things. There are many different perceptions of what the ultimate truth is (where did we come from; who is God, etc), but outside of our perception, there exists only one truth. Who knows what that truth is? (I guess that this makes me a fence sitter )"Mind you I should add I am not your 'classical' Christian" - ShazI suppose that in a way, I am a Christian too, in the sense that I agree with and tend to live by Jesus’ teachings, which are convergent with a lot of the teachings of Eastern philosophers. I’d be interested to know how you mean you are not a classical Christian. I also find it interesting that you started off as atheist/agnostic and then found Christianity. Most people I know went about things from the other direction "Compared to the scary world of unimpeachable superbeings offered by theists like you, I find atheism quite comforting. It's a relief to know that my efforts to do good in the world will be opposed only by other humans, not by the personification of evil with powers unopposable by mortals." - CrashfrogYep I was brought up to believe that there was no real need to try and do good in the world, because eventually, God would sort out the problems. Any attempts made to bring paradise on sooner would be seen as being disrespectful to God. Personally, I don’t like the idea of suffering without doing something about it.

Philosophically speaking, nobody. Nobody is able to directly probe reality; we have only the information of our senses. Perhaps the vase has one "true" color; perhaps, though, the vase does not exist at all, but rather, it's just the Matrix supplying your brain with information about the color of an imaginary vase.You can't refute solipsism, really. The only escape is the naturalist realization that it doesn't really matter if you're in reality or in the Matrix if, in either case, the physical world appears to react according to discernable, constant laws.Personally, to bring it back to the topic, I don't care what people believe, because it's not what you believe, it's what you do. So many of these spiritual questions are just self-indulgent naval-gazing, and a distraction from actually getting work done in the universe.

Interesting point, and I can understand that 'to know' would seem contradictory to my statement, which I tried to phrase in a way as to not be arrogant. So therefore I will change my statement to:"I have seen, and experienced far more, than many people have been able to even begin to comprehend."So the answer as to how I know? From my experiences, it's what I feel, what I see, what I hear. People I have spoken with, have also stated an inability to even begin to comprehend with their logic.Shaz

I wonder, Shaz, how you can claim to know the contents of the sum total comprehension of the world possessed by many (what number of people or percentage of the population constitutes "many"?) people? You cannot know the content of their minds, except to the extent that they choose to share it, and you can't know how far they are choosing to share it. If you have some means of really knowing the contents of another person's mind that is unknown to me, please share it.Also, what criteria are you using to say that your experience is greater then another person's? If it is greater, then "experience" must be measurable, else how can one said to be greater then another. Is it a measure of quality or quantity?

Yes Zawinul that is the point that I was trying to make too. Life as we know it is a matter of perception, and I include in that scientific facts. By that I mean, we are ever advancing ever learning, and what is the absolute truth today, may not be tomorrow, as we continue to advance. If my choice was to be ignorant, then scientific matters and the like, would have no bearing as 'truths' to me. So indeed the vase may be blue, but if I choose ignorance, then it could just as easily not exist at all. Perhaps you and me both. I also try to live by the teachings of Christ, and I read somewhere a comment someone made, about a bare foot Christ who preaches love, well that is what I hold to. But I also hold much in the way of other philosophies, teachings, and social science knowledge. So really by not being a classical Christian, I mean that I am an eclectic mix of many things. It would be too hard to classify me, as I am also everchanging, and everevolving. I have to say this made me laugh, if you knew me, you would know why. Maybe my conversion coming from an actual experience has something to do with it. I could never explain it though, or begin to even rationalise with human logic for anyone. Heck I even spent about 3 years trying to use logic to justifying it, for myself. Finally I concluded though, that battling myself was the only thing that wasn't logical. From the moment I stopped, my experiences have continued to grow me beyond what I could ever have imagined.Shazp.s. Are you Jar?

Actually your right Mike, you make a very good point here: You are most definitely right, about it being dependant on what they choose to share. So I suppose that means the very people I speak to of my experience (the same ones who tell me hard things for my own benefit), actually choose to lie at other times. Given what I know of my relationships with these people, I find that hard to accept. Granted though I do not know. So your point is well noted Mike. My reference to many, was in reference to those I have spoken to, of my experiences. It in no way means I have knowledge of all things, or that others do not know more. Nor does it mean, that the rest of the world would agree with the views expressed by those I have spoken with.Would you be happier if I reworded the statement to read?

quote:

---

The people I have spoken with about my experiences, have said that what I have experienced and seen is beyond their ability to comprehend.

---

I don't think I said, that my experiences were greater. However I shall look over my posts and check if such was the case, it is not in my nature to be like that though. If I find such is the case I shall certainly retract that, willingly. I would hope never to say my experiences were greater, there is so much beauty in the world, and wonder to experience, that each has its own level of greatness no more or no less than another.As for my experiences, they still stand and I believe in them, regardless of what the opinion of others is.Shaz

quote:

---

If I have coffee, and the label doesn't mention God as the origin of the beans, am I drinking atheist coffee?

---

mmmmm....athiest coffee....

Hey Shraf...talk to your bosses, it could be the start of a whole new product line. argg....changed IDThis message has been edited by Asgara, 01-03-2005 22:22 AM

---

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

I was using greater as synonymous with "more". In what way is you expierence more than what most people can comprehend?

Now, see how far you came from your original statement, which was:

quote:

---

There is so much more, than what we can even begin to comprehend with our human logic.

---

?The above is making a very grand statement about what all of humanity can comprehend, and is also a very strong claim that there is, indeed, "so much more" out there.After being questioned a bit about your basis for such a claim, you have made a much less grand, overarching statement about all of humanity and instead speak in limited terms about your own subjective experience:

quote:

---

The people I have spoken with about my experiences, have said that what I have experienced and seen is beyond their ability to comprehend.

---

I might mention here that it is, in fact, impossible for any other person to comprehend anything exactly the way I do, or you do. Nor can you or I comprehend others' experiences the way they do.Really, your second statement has very little to do with the first.You may feel, personally, that there is "more than what we can even begin to comprehend with our human logic", but if you can't comprehend it with your human mind and logic, how can you know it is there? You cannot, by definition, have any experience of it at all.