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Author Topic:   Where Did Big Bang Energy Come From?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 46 of 84 (209043)
05-17-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dead Parrot
05-17-2005 1:36 AM


I think in the buz scheme of things the answer to all your questions (even the ones you haven't asked ) is :
Goddidit
There may be some hand waving in the general direction of the laws of physics or what have you but at the end of the day it all comes down to God can do whatever he wants.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dead Parrot, posted 05-17-2005 1:36 AM Dead Parrot has not replied

  
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 84 (209248)
05-18-2005 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
05-16-2005 11:58 PM


In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence.
I lean more towards ID as well and agree that it can exist in tandem with an infinite Universe and that all we know is just one of an infinite number of similar pockets of space time. My question to Buz though is whether your philosphy then includes the belief that a universe existed for an infinite length of time before the creation of our solar system and will exist for an infinite length of time after the demise of our sun and our individual eternal existence is based on a finite time on this planet ?
This message has been edited by nipok, 05-18-2005 02:50 AM

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Vash
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 84 (210956)
05-24-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nipok
05-18-2005 2:49 AM


Were there laws concerning matter and conservation of energy before the big bang?

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 49 of 84 (211014)
05-24-2005 11:51 PM


No one knows.
No one knows where the energy came from. And more importantly, what exactley is energy?

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 50 of 84 (211016)
05-25-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Vash
05-24-2005 6:22 PM


Hi Vash:
Vash writes:
Were there laws concerning matter and conservation of energy before the big bang?
Heh, a even better question is : Is a BEFORE the Big bang even possible considering time did not exist prior to the event.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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Replies to this message:
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 51 of 84 (211138)
05-25-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by 1.61803
05-25-2005 12:04 AM


Time before the bang?
Dear 1.61803,
Do you not miscalculate or oversimplify relativistic theory stating: "time did not exist prior to the event"
Do you speculate (dogmatically) your universe is just a finite space-time continuum?
Or, worse, that no other universe(s) could possibly exist beyond my puny universe?
Why must science-fairies (AKA, devils) so tenaciously whisper to us "cursed ignoramuses" that our "visible" universe is so "flat-earth-like"?
Could Columbus have repeatedly professed similar error when he discovered Hispanola, N. America, and finally, the United States of Texas?
This message has been edited by Philip, 05-25-2005 12:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by 1.61803, posted 05-25-2005 12:04 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Vash, posted 05-26-2005 1:08 AM Philip has replied
 Message 54 by 1.61803, posted 05-26-2005 10:31 AM Philip has not replied

  
Vash
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 84 (211354)
05-26-2005 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Philip
05-25-2005 12:19 PM


Re: Time before the bang?
Phil try and make sense. And that is exactly my point, there was nothing, no time, no matter, no energy, no PHYSICAL LAWS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Philip, posted 05-25-2005 12:19 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by sidelined, posted 05-26-2005 8:20 AM Vash has not replied
 Message 57 by Philip, posted 05-27-2005 5:05 PM Vash has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 53 of 84 (211404)
05-26-2005 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Vash
05-26-2005 1:08 AM


Re: Time before the bang?
Vash
Phil try and make sense. And that is exactly my point, there was nothing, no time, no matter, no energy, no PHYSICAL LAWS.
Actually Vash ,we do not know if there were physical laws or not.We can only make inferences about what should be happening at the beginning based on laws that allow us to derive a physical universe consistent with what we observe.In particle accelerators we areable to observe the actions of matter under the extremes of temperature and relativistic velocities.Our models of quantum mechanics allows us to say what is happening up to a certain point after the origin but not precisely at the beginning because of the nature of matter.That nature is quantum which is to say it comes in discrete packages which are of a finite size.
From the Hyperphysics website
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html
Quantum properties dominate the fields of atomic and molecular physics. Radiation is quantized such that for a given frequency of radiation, there can be only one value of quantum energy for the photons of that radiation. The energy levels of atoms and molecules can have only certain quantized values. Transitions between these quantized states occur by the photon processes absorption, emission, and stimulated emission.
The physical laws as we know them allow us only to determine what occurs to matter as a result of temperatures present at that moment.
We can say what occurs at the moment 10^-43 sec after origin.The models we have do not allow us to speculate with any confidence beyond this.That is unfortunate but it is a product of the wave nature of matter and,at present,is the best we can do.
10^-43 second is a vanishingly small amount of time.There are also laws built into the universe that may prevent there being a time before this as a consequence of the structure of space-time.The uncertainty principle forbids there being a reltionship between energy and time smaller than a certain amount and is given by the formula dE x dt = h/2pi where d is means change in value and h is Planck's constant.There is also a relationship between momentum {p} and position {x} which follows the same formula and is written thus dp x dx = h/2pi/
If we postulate that the universe had an origin at T=O then the energy scales to infinity and the monentum and position fall to 0 which viiolates the uncertainty principle.We are then faced with the question of how can the uncertainty principle be violated prior to this or failing that how does the uncertainty principle arise from a universe hat did not have it to begin with?

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 54 of 84 (211447)
05-26-2005 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Philip
05-25-2005 12:19 PM


Re: Time before the bang?
Phillip writes:
Do you not miscalculate or oversimplify relativistic theory stating: "time did not exist prior to the event"
Well,,,concidering that time is an expression of space no.
Phillip writes:
Do you speculate (dogmatically) your universe is just a finite space-time continuum?
Ummm...no. I speculate that you are introducing dogma.
Phillip writes:
Or, worse, that no other universe(s) could possibly exist beyond my puny universe?
I am only aware of one universe that exist. Multi-universe theory, brane theory, and what ever other theories one cares to postulate are fun and interesting but in the end my puny universe seems to be mysterious enough.
Phillip writes:
Why must science-fairies (AKA, devils) so tenaciously whisper to us "curesd ignoramuses" that our "visible" universe is so "flat-earth-like"?
I do not believe in fairies nor the devil. So if you are hearing whispers from such entities I suggest you seek psycological medical care. *edit to correct quote.
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 05-26-2005 10:34 AM

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 55 of 84 (211453)
05-26-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by 1.61803
05-26-2005 10:31 AM


Not a very useful post
Your first line isn't very clear and I suspect is wrong since we are not at all clear on what time is. I think you would be in trouble if asked to explain it at length (but that just might be because I know I would be).
The rest of them may be cute but I don't think they further the discussion at all.

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 Message 54 by 1.61803, posted 05-26-2005 10:31 AM 1.61803 has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 56 of 84 (211460)
05-26-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by AdminNosy
05-26-2005 10:48 AM


Re: Not a very useful post
Ok not a very useful post. I am perplexed by that statement concidering the post I was responding to was not very useful either. Nor is the one I am responding to now.
AdminNosy writes:
Your first line isn't very clear and I suspect is wrong since we are not at all clear on what time is.
And with that I suggest that my statement is just as valid as yours or anyones elses then. And I think my statement is very clear...how can time exist in the absence of space?

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 57 of 84 (211933)
05-27-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Vash
05-26-2005 1:08 AM


Re: Speculation
Welcome Vash.
Cosmic Speculation(s).
I know what your saying theoretically applies to a closed "universal" systems.
Who says our universe is closed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Vash, posted 05-26-2005 1:08 AM Vash has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 58 of 84 (211964)
05-27-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by 1.61803
05-26-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Not a very useful post
I (personally) don't know what time really is, too.
"I really don't know clouds at all", sang one 60's artist (female).
In sum, my invalidities and your invalidities don't justify anything as "clear" up to this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by 1.61803, posted 05-26-2005 11:03 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by 1.61803, posted 05-28-2005 10:17 AM Philip has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 59 of 84 (212096)
05-28-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Philip
05-27-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Not a very useful post
Hi Phillip, I like that song.
I will be a little clearer.
Time may be just another example of natures tendency to merge the properties of the universe as with electricity and magnatism, energy and mass. Space and time.
Time...does it exist in a vaccum? If nothing is moving, if there is no matter, no energy, no space then how can time exist? If the universe was once less than plankes size and TIME was once less than Plankes time then it is speculation on all counts what precedes those two measurements. But I believe that time was a result of big bang.
Since the big bang at it's orgin was a singularity then in the absence of space,energy/matter there was no time. Once the event occured the concept of time as a component to the universe began, along with space, and matter. It is merely my own beliefs, no dogma I promise. Take care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Philip, posted 05-27-2005 6:47 PM Philip has replied

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 60 of 84 (212629)
05-30-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by 1.61803
05-28-2005 10:17 AM


Re: Time and light constraints
Very well...
I speculate somewhat the same (regarding this universe), non-dogmatically. The universe is a veritable expanse. Yesterday, I asked several younglings do you know what time is? One (girl) apologized and stated she didn’t have the time. The others stated they did not know what time is.
A 14y/o youngling and I discussed time vs. clocks. Relativistic theories invoke time, gamma (speed of light), and gravity. Our puny clocks (e.g., diurnal and atomic clocks) do merely validate time’s behavior. And there are real time dilation-constrictions everywhere in the universe:
The classic relativity example: If you were stationed here with me and if I decided to take a walk up the street (peradventure walking at nearly light-speed) then return back to you, you would have aged a bit faster, from my perspective. I would appear less aged than you, from your perspective
Bare with me and this hypothesis
Now (any lurker help), hypothetically, the big bang energy had to be enormous enough to initially expand the universe at nearly the speed of light. Notwithstanding, all universe-objects approach nearly INFINITE MASS during a big-bang gamma-event. E=mCC
What kind of enormous and excellent (non-chaotic) energy existed to do that big bang? Atomic and sub-atomic energies are pathetically puny and chaotic, here!
Why the distant light-trails of outlying stars presently manifest NO GRAVITATIONAL SPACE-TIME CURVATURE, telescopically (to the best of my
knowledge). The universe appears infinite, thus.
Also, this universe cannot effectively survive more than a few billion years (e.g., 20 billion years? 30 billion years?). This, methinks, is because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the short lives of elements, or something.
Am I correct to conclude and theorize?:
1) The enormous nature of the big-bang energy seems supernatural, originating from a fully omnipotent power, that is, EX-NIHILO, from God?
2) The very excellent (non-chaotic) nature of the big-bang energy suggests that the big-bang energy originated (somehow) from an infinitely beneficent redeeming ID, that is, from God’s Christ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by 1.61803, posted 05-28-2005 10:17 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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