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Author | Topic: What is the YEC answer to the lack of shorter lived isotopes? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
zephyr Member (Idle past 4550 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
quote:For the sake of argument, I'll go along with this, but note that you have to support the predictions you make using two theories. Beware strawmen, as they will completely ruin the comparisons later made. quote:You realize there are many, many factors which affect the rate of reproduction, and that "fitness" cannot be said to imply anything apart from maximizing the production of viable, reproducing offspring. For example, the more educated and affluent members of society are often found to reproduce less than others. Why? Because they have things like birth control and competing priorities, and because they have the education to broaden their perspective, and to give them the concept that there is more to life than spawning offspring to support us in our old age. quote:Don't assume that consciousness of selection pressure is implied by fitness. Viruses aren't exactly aware of the selection pressure created by our immune systems, but they sure as hell evolve end-runs around them. quote:Which proves nothing about the correctness of their theories. Ignorant and poverty-stricken people in the third world reproduce far better than educated and affluent members of society. Does god like them better? No. They simply lack the information and resources to plan their reproductive acts for convenient times, and the perspective to restrain themselves from overpopulating and destroying their respective sections of the world. No offense, but reproductive fitness in today's world is a very bad thing for us all, if you use the textbook definition. That's why so many of us choose to be reproductively unfit. We realize that the blind reproductive obession of instinct, which has brought mankind to its place in the world, will cause our race serious harm if we do not transcend its directives. One might even say that religious restrictions on birth control, which forcefully increase the reproductive fitness of members of their faiths, run counter to the supposed divine charge that humanity be good stewards of the earth. We have been fruitful and multiplied and are now in the process of going beyond filling the earth to crowding it out and destroying countless other beings in the process. It is obvious that today's reproductive fitness is tomorrow's overpopulation. Thus, the creationist view (as virtually always associated with this point of view) is more likely part of the problem, and in the long run does not serve reproductive fitness but rather encourages population crash via mass die-off.
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Stephen ben Yeshua Inactive Member |
Zephyr,
Your cautions are appropriate, and accepted. But hear mine. You say things like "completely ruin" and "proves nothing." which suggests that you have an "all-or-nothing" (dogmatic) inclination driving you. I disagree with most of your ad hoc explanations of the predictions, which doesn't mean too much. What is interesting is that you decided to weaken the argument that way, instead of coming up with a contrasting set of predictions confirming evolution over evolition. Stephen
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4550 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
quote:That, or maybe I just have a tendency to over-dramatize quote:What's even more interesting is your decision that psychoanalyzing me is more important than answering my concerns. The fact remains that in today's world, the people who breed the most are either ignorant, poor, held captive to religious restrictions on contraception (and thus highly fit against their will, or some combination of all of those. High present-day reproductive fitness is antithetical to responsibility, wisdom, foresight, and respect for the environment of which humanity is but a small part.
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Stephen ben Yeshua Inactive Member |
Zephyr,
The relatively high reproductive rates in some third world nations does not, as you point out, represent true fitness, which is best estimated using reproducing offspring. You'll recall that I drew attention to Amish and Mennonites, who average over 9 children per couple, 85% of whom stay "in the faith" and go one to also average 9 children per family. All the while stewarding the land as well as it is stewarded anywhere. Actually, I also look at Switzerland, a K-selected population, as also having, under the terms you suggest, a rather fit population. Be interesting to compare the Swiss W before and after they took up with evolutionary thinking. But evolutionists are like Shakers, hardly reproducing at all, but converting many to their belief system. Unfortuneately, the "broad road/narrow road" prediction of biblical creation actually predicts this sort of "fitness" for evolutionists. So, it does not really separate the two theories. Nor was I psychoanalyzing you. Just drawing attention to the rules you are playing by. Ad hoc ideas have a very weak influence on debates, until they are tested by predictions, at least as I was taught the game. You might benefit from Julian Simon's "The Ultimate Resource" from Princeton. Also, note in passing that the "overpopulation" hypothesis has been around a long time, has made many predictions, none of which have been confirmed. Why do you find it plausible? Reason? How do you separate reason from rationalization? Please recall that this is no place, epistemologically, for persuasion. I can help you understand certain ideas, and can point you to information you might not otherwise have. Whether you want to understand, or to cure ignorance, is a choice you now have. I have helped you be freer, given you more intellectual choice. Of course, if you choose to be more deeply opinionated in your views, my comments are less than useless. Stephen
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4550 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
I am always interested in learning, and I prefer to do so on my own time at my own pace. You're barking up the wrong tree by calling me dogmatic. Most of the time, I just watch these arguments and hit all the links I have time for, and assimilate everything that seems valid.
You're right about this being the wrong place for persuasion. I'm not sure how many people even learn anything here, let alone change their minds about anything, since so many just come to pick fights and leave as ignorant as they started.
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Stephen ben Yeshua Inactive Member |
Zephyr,
You say,
You're barking up the wrong tree by calling me dogmatic. Glad to hear it! And to have been mistaken in my judgment. Stephen
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I have come to wonder if form-mnaking may not in fact occur DUE to differnt rates of radioactive decay IN LIFE. This is a weird thought I admit but one if true will bring my own creationist inclination and ICR declinations in line. The only requirement of completing Einstein's program for science I wrongly thought reified the differnt KINDS of forces while in historical context I have come to understand that only asserting ELECTRICTY annnnnnd MAGNETISIM remands parralels NOT be crossed and that is possible with math of Groups. It seems possible purely to me that Cantor's ABCD..L real number groups which have never been defined do not violate Einstein's intention and this would bring the grammer as well in line with Von Weisacker's philosophy if not every errrrrrLOL UR provided Muller's terms of morph is rigourously so applicable.
If all that is true, a bit too big for me to swallow whole, then the reason that we MISTAKEN discuss creation and evolution of material non living timing events is that we have enabled the medical phenomena to take over the neumana or some such sounding thing WHILE SEPERATING DISCIPLINES bioLOGY, chemISTRY, phySICS. sCHOOL iS iNDEed boring. The reason creationists discuss this is clear having to do with internal dissent.
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John Paul Inactive Member |
Rei, What is the evidence that any of these alleged missing isotopes were ever on earth? IOW soemthing shouldn't be considered missing if it wasn't here in the first place. So that is where we need to start. It will only become a problem for YEC if and only if those isotopes can be placed on earth. If they can't be placed on earth at some point in the past then YECs have nothing to explain.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
What is the evidence that any of these alleged missing isotopes were ever on earth?
Daughter isotopes. Start explaining.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
True, there is no need to explain the absence of something that was never present. Rei's point (by the way, Rei hasn't been active in a while) is that the missing isotopes all have the shorter half-lives, and that the line of demarkation between those missing and those present is consistent with an age of billions of years. It's simply another bit of evidence consistent with an ancient earth.
What is the Creationist explanation for why the isotopes with shorter half-lives are missing? --Percy
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John Paul Inactive Member |
Daughter isotopes? It would depend if those alleged daughter isotopes have one and only one possible parent. Please state which daughter isotopes fall in to this category.
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John Paul Inactive Member |
Percy, my point is that we don't know if they are missing or were never here. It doesn't matter what the half-life is. If that isotope wasn't here in the first place it is not an issue and not missing. I could say my bank account is missing one million dollars. I mean there isn't a million dollars in my account so it must be missing? Right? No, I never had one million dollars in any one account.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Yes yes, John Paul, but as noted this is just one of the pieces of evidence. Is it just a huge co-incidence that the ones that are missing are exactly right to match the measured age by using the long lived isotopes? (and any and all other pieces of evidence? )
Here is a bit of writing by a Christian:Geoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that... quote: I don't know enough nuclear physics to tell if neodymium-142 can come from other sources. How far are you going to go with this? Common sense isn't
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
The isotopes are naturally occurring, and so they all should exist on earth. But a number of them are missing, and they're all the ones with shorter half-lives. They are missing because sufficient time has passed for them to decay completely away.
--Percy
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
An example is that of uranium and lead in zircons. When zircons crystallize, they reject lead from their crystal lattices, but can incorporate uranium. And lo and behold, today's zircons have some lead in them - with lead-206 and lead-207 in excess. And those two isotopes are daughters of uranium isotopes. The same sort of thing happens in meteorites, where there's magnesium-26 in aluminum minerals. It's the daughter of Al-26, which is ~1,600,000 year half-life, IIRC.
I'll look at the books for zirconium and hafnium daughters when I get the chance. Both should be in zircons, and I'll bet their daughters are rejected.
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