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Author Topic:   What is the biggest bible contradiction?
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6142 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 136 of 311 (368257)
12-07-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Clark
11-25-2006 12:00 PM


A new thread if you have the time and will?
Clark
Also, the JW's Bible has even more contradictions and problems than the orthodox Christian Bible.
I'm particularly interested in this statement. Should we make a new thread or discuss it here briefly?
Would be very nice to know about these problems and contradictions in JW's Bible. Please, if you have the time.
Sorry for this triple post

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8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4464 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 137 of 311 (368258)
12-07-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Neutralmind
12-07-2006 4:06 PM


Re: Just another contridiction/ridiculous Biblical quotation, not sure if it the biggest!
Maybe these Bronze Age Numbnuts were slow learners! "Hey, Ackmed, why are those 30,000 men up there all dead? I can't wait till we get to look in the silly wood crate and see what's all the fuss is about. Duh....I'll go first!" "Hey Bubba, you got to see this!"
They also lamented. I'd be hauling ass or at the least holding my eyes tight shut.
In regards to Dino and Noah being contemporaries, isn’t that really scary that somebody would actually think that?
Wouldn’t you think that if indeed there were 20-foot high 7-ton people-eating Tyrannosaurus Rex wandering about that somebody, somewhere in the Bible would have at least mentioned them? I believe you would have read, “And it came to pass that Noah and the little lady had 10 youngun’s and this big ass lizard ate 4 of them. Praise the Lord!” “Is that thunder, Japheth? Japheth? Where's Japheth? Why is that Tyrannosaurus grinning?”

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8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4464 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 138 of 311 (368259)
12-07-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Coragyps
12-07-2006 4:15 PM


Re: Just another contridiction/ridiculous Biblical quotation, not sure if it the biggest!
Coragyps wrote, "And who got the golden images of the mice and "emerods" that day? Did he get smitten too?"
This must have been a Federal RICO action. If you were part of the group peaking in you got your butt kicked.
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act - Wikipedia
What does a pile of 50,000 dead men look like? The first to die would have already been stinky and all swole up by the time the first 1,000 looked in the ark.

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 139 of 311 (368264)
12-07-2006 5:16 PM


The major contradiction I found is "In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth." If god already existed to create the heaven and the earth, then how could this be the beginning? The beginning must have been when god was created (ex nihilo?). Or, if god had existed forever, there simply was no beginning. And where did god reside before he created heaven? Apparently, the heaven that good people go to when they die is NOT the abode of god! He probably wouldn't like that bright light in his eyes all the time.
I suspect the bible has other contradictions, but this is as far as I've read so far.

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6257 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 140 of 311 (368296)
12-07-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by AnswersInGenitals
12-07-2006 5:16 PM


Get a better translation ...

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 141 of 311 (368322)
12-07-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by AnswersInGenitals
12-07-2006 5:16 PM


The major contradiction I found is "In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth." If god already existed to create the heaven and the earth...
to elaborate on the above post, because the singular past tense and singular present tense of verbs are the same in hebrew, there is another way to acceptably break up the grammar of the first sentance in genesis. the hebrew says:
quote:
‘, ‘ —, ,
b'reishit bara elohim et ha-shamim v'et ha-eretz
in-first create(d?) god (d.o.) the-skies and-(d.o.) the-land
this can be read as a very straightforward and simplistic sentance:
quote:
in the beginning, god created the skies and the land
or as part of a more complex statement:
quote:
when god began creating the skies and the ground... (and the earth was shapeless and empty... etc)
either is an entirely acceptable reading. if the concept that "b'reishit" refers to the beginning of time (or before the beginning of time) is a bit abstact for you, take the second reading. though really, the first chapter of genesis was basically written to explain time itself, the passage of days, and the structure of the week.
Or, if god had existed forever, there simply was no beginning.
the text seems to mean, in my humble opinion, the beginning of the earth.
And where did god reside before he created heaven?
in (above?) "the deep." there is a kind of primordial ocean from which everything else is created. "heaven" here is literally the word for "sky" (in plural).
Apparently, the heaven that good people go to when they die is NOT the abode of god!
this concept is decidedly missing from the torah. i can't find much hint of any belief in the afterlife until much later in the bible, and the question about the torah's usage of "sheol" (the grave) is debatable. at best, it is akin to the greek hades (the word the new testament uses for "hell") where people are shades of their former selves. at worst, it's a literal grave.
the first person to "go to heaven" in the bible is enoch, and the second is elijah, and those were both bodily transportations it seems.
I suspect the bible has other contradictions, but this is as far as I've read so far.
keep reading, lol.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 142 of 311 (368323)
12-07-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Neutralmind
12-07-2006 4:18 PM


Re: A new thread if you have the time and will?
I'm particularly interested in this statement. Should we make a new thread or discuss it here briefly?
Would be very nice to know about these problems and contradictions in JW's Bible. Please, if you have the time.
i haven't had the opportunity to take a good look at the wt edition. if someone would like to open a thread on the differences (pros and cons) i would be interested.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 143 of 311 (368324)
12-07-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Neutralmind
12-07-2006 4:03 PM


Re: just one more
Did dinosaurs and man coexist according to the bible?
contrary to the fundamentalist claims, there is no mention of dinosaurs in the bible. there is the leviathan, but he seems to a collective levantine mythological sea monster. there is more argument for him being a giant squid than a dinosaur. or really, there's more argument for him being a greatly exagerated whale -- "livyatan" does mean "whale" in modern hebrew.
i don't mean to side-track this. there have been numerous threads on him AND behemot before.
If not, how was there "meat eating" before "the fall" ?
also, another mistaken and empty fundamentalist point. if they were paying close attention to the bible they would find that it's only man that did not eat meat, and it had nothing to with the fall, but rather the flood. the bible does not consider animals people, so it doesn't care to issue commands about what they can and cannot eat.
there are also vague references in isaiah about predatory animals laying down with domesticated animals and eating straw. but this is prophecy, and probably symbolic.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 144 of 311 (368325)
12-07-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by 8upwidit2
12-07-2006 12:51 PM


Re: Just another contridiction/ridiculous Biblical quotation, not sure if it the bigg
Unless my math is a bit fuzzy again, this says 50,070 men were killed for looking into the Ark of the Covenant. Are we to conclude that each and every one of these 50,070 men looked into that box?
remember raiders of the lost ark? how many nazi faces did god melt at a shot?
it's curious that this only happens once the ark is returned to the levites. and the text is actually unclear (grammatically) WHO does the smiting.
it's also entirely plausible that this verse simply tallies smiting already committed. the various palestinian groups all suffered plagues because of the presence of the ark, and this seems to be about the people from beth-shemesh dying as a result of the ark's stay with them, much like the last few chapters.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 145 of 311 (368326)
12-07-2006 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by anastasia
11-30-2006 1:31 PM


aramaic
Any evidence of when Aramaic was first recognized as a language?
as brian said, the tel dan stele. other than that, we have few books of the bible (ezra, daniel) which are written entirely in aramaic, and a few references (possibly even in the torah) which appear to be aramaic.
Or, any possibility it was still called Hebrew at times?
aramaic is a separate (though semantically related) language. it's confusing now, because modern hebrew derives from the bible -- which includes aramaic text. the two languages are closer today than there were in jesus's time.
i'll have to take brian's word that aramaic is the older of the two; i'm not sure myself. i can tell you that aramaic pre-dates the modern hebrew block-lettering, as this derives from the aramaic alef-bet, which in turn derives from phoenician.
Edited by arachnophilia, : subtitle


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 146 of 311 (368331)
12-07-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by arachnophilia
12-07-2006 11:12 PM


Re: aramaic
Thanks, Arach, your knowledge is impressive. I have not been following this thread as it seemed dead for awhile, but I think I was wondering about Matthew writing in Hebrew. I clearly see that in all existing documents, he wrote in Aramaic, but I still had that nagging remembrance of hearing, like someone mentioned, that he wrote in Hebrew. Then Brian mentioned Papias, and Papias claimed Matthew wrote in Hebrew. I may have phrased my questions wrong; I did think that Hebrew was the older language, but my point was whether or not Papias could have called Aramaic 'Hebrew' as in 'the language of the Hebrews'? I mean, was Aramaic called Aramaic then?
It may seem like a silly question, but I am thinking about a scenerio like with Old Church Slavonic, the language (now dead) used by Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. This language has progressed into other slavic languages, but at the time when the liturgies of the Orthodox churches were written, I do not think it was called 'Old Church Slavonic'. I am not sure what it[ b]was[/b] called, but it may have been simply called Russian back then, see?

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 147 of 311 (368334)
12-07-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by arachnophilia
12-07-2006 10:34 PM


Re: A new thread if you have the time and will?
Do you know if this thread has opened anywhere?

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6257 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 148 of 311 (368375)
12-08-2006 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by arachnophilia
12-07-2006 10:30 PM


J.C. de Moore writes in The Rise of Yahwism: "... the people of Ugarit believed in a kind of creatio continua, like the Egyptians and the Israelites."

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 149 of 311 (368588)
12-08-2006 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by anastasia
12-07-2006 11:43 PM


Re: aramaic
but I think I was wondering about Matthew writing in Hebrew. I clearly see that in all existing documents, he wrote in Aramaic, but I still had that nagging remembrance of hearing, like someone mentioned, that he wrote in Hebrew.
that's still a big negative on both counts. matthew wrote in koine greek, as did every other author of the new testament.
it's possible that source documents (or possibly an original) in aramaic exists, but i find this idea quite unlikely. there are other gospels that DO exist in aramaic, but to my knowledge there is no known aramaic manuscript of matthew.
Then Brian mentioned Papias, and Papias claimed Matthew wrote in Hebrew.
this is actually more likely than aramaic. let me make an argument based on a number of faulty assumptions for a second. let's assume for a second that the gospel is entirely accurate and unchanged from it's original form (it's not). and let's also assume that the name attached to the gospel is accurate, and refers to the matthew in the gospel (also unlikely).
supposing these two facts are true... matthew is called "levi" a number of times other gospels, and it's possible he is a levite, the only family of jews at the time that would be in a position to even know hebrew. although he was a tax-collector and not a pharisee, it's somewhat possible.
but let's look a verse or two, say the last words of jesus.
quote:
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lema sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
now, the statement jesus utters, — — — ‘, is a transliteration of the aramaic into greek (and into english). he says "elahi, elahi, lamah shabaqt-ani?" which in itself is a reference to the twenty second psalm. but imagine that matthew wrote in aramaic for a second. what's the purpose of the included translation?
the equivalent in aramaic would read:
quote:
"my god, my god, why have you abandoned me?" meaning "my god, my god, why have you abandoned me?"
matthew includes a number of places where jesus speaks in aramaic, and then matthew translates it into some other language (say, greek). NONE of these can possibly make any sense if the language of the text is aramaic. but it can in hebrew.
in hebrew, that verse of matthew would be the aramaic jesus said, and the hebrew rendering of it, which is — —, — —‘ with ezbetani instead of shabaqtani.
but there are problems with this, of course. for instance, the fact that anyone who spoke hebrew in that place and time also spoke aramaic. the languages are very, very similar. similar enough that my untrained ear catches about as much of what jesus says in the passion of the christ as it does a native hebrew speaker speaking fluently.
hebrew, at that time, was more or less only spoken by the pharisees. matthew is NOT addressed to them. aramaic would get the book to the masses locally but matthew is aimed at a much larger audience. and even if it's only addressed to jews, there were much more that spoke greek abroad than there that spoke aramaic in judea. it also gets the book to non-jews, and helps save it for posterity in a very hellenized world.
the arguments for greek authorship really are just the most convincing.
I may have phrased my questions wrong; I did think that Hebrew was the older language, but my point was whether or not Papias could have called Aramaic 'Hebrew' as in 'the language of the Hebrews'? I mean, was Aramaic called Aramaic then?
"hebrew" and "the language of the hebrews" could be different things, i'm not sure.
I mean, was Aramaic called Aramaic then?
quote:
Gen 10:22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
aram is a son of shem ("semitic"), according to genesis. this is a neighboring country, just to the south east of judah. the name exists in genesis, so i'm going to wager a guess of "yes." aram's brother, arpakshad, is the father of eber, as in or , "hebrew." so we have the name "aram" existing in biblical times, and aram being older than eber according to genesis. but whatever stock into that you will, but the function of genesis is partially to explain the origins of names -- so these names had to exist at the time.
It may seem like a silly question, but I am thinking about a scenerio like with Old Church Slavonic, the language (now dead) used by Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. This language has progressed into other slavic languages, but at the time when the liturgies of the Orthodox churches were written, I do not think it was called 'Old Church Slavonic'.
aramaic was a foriegn language (but full of cognates, and using the same alef-bet) that slowly infiltrated judea through foreign influence, and became the vernacular dialect after some time. at this point, sometime while the ot was still being written, hebrew essentially became a dead language. some time between 600bc and 200ad (they might have a date, i'm not sure) the original hebrew alef-bet was replaced with one resembling aramaic. our oldest hebrew copy of the complete tanakh (masoretic) is written in the aramaic-influenced script. most of the dss scrolls are in this script too, though some inclusions of ancient hebrew exist. we have some older documents in ancient hebrew.
hebrew, especially ancient/biblical hebrew, was then considered a "holy language" for some time, spoken only by rabbis performing ceremonies. because of this, it stayed dead until about 1940 something, around the time israel became a country. it seemed the perfect language to make the official state language, but even still there were a number of objections based on the dilution of the language through use, and avoiding using holy things.
since 1948 or so, hebrew has continued to evolve, and now incorporates many arabic, aramaic, and even english terms. they have a council that regulates this, but nobody cares. but anyways, hebrew comes from the eberites (hebrews), aramaic from the arameans. two different languages.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 150 of 311 (368589)
12-08-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ConsequentAtheist
12-08-2006 7:10 AM


J.C. de Moore writes in The Rise of Yahwism: "... the people of Ugarit believed in a kind of creatio continua, like the Egyptians and the Israelites."
the regard that god seems to continue to act (sometimes making it up as he goes along, or correcting mistakes), this is probably accurate.
it's also important to remember that the NAME of genesis is "b'reishit." the whole book is called "in the beginning." while titles in the torah are taken from the first word, it is a fitting title, as the book is entirely about the beginnings (the genesis) of all kinds of things. so "in the beginning" could refer to basically everything before the formation of formal judaism with moses.

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 Message 148 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-08-2006 7:10 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

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