When the flood waters receded, where did they go ?

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Originally posted by gene90:
There is, of course, a geological term. But I forgot it.

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JM: It's called obduction. The San Francisco Mint is built on some of this material.CheersJoe MEert

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Conventional theory in the mainstream (Which I agree in a YECists scenario) is by chemical fractionation of incompatible elements (majority being lithophilic & atmophilic(?)) in the early stages of the earths formation as the hot mantle convected.

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Ok. I got it now. Been readin' up on it. I hate to be wrong but... oh well, it happens.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by John:
Ok. I got it now. Been readin' up on it. I hate to be wrong but... oh well, it happens.

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Hey, no problem. Never be afraid to be wrong. You should only avoid being willfully wrong.The problem is that geology is not quite the soft science that many people think you can pick up by reading some articles or a few creationist websites.

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
From the context of the conversation, the only thing I can think of is Accreted sediment from decending lithosphere during subduction. But if mind serves me right, the only subduction zone near the North American Plate is the trench directly above South America. Forgot what that one was called.

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Well, there is the Juan de Fuca plate being subducted beneath Oregon and Washington. That's where we get active volcanos such as Lassen, Rainier and Baker. There's also the Aleutian trench which extends from the Alaska Peninsula to Kamchatka with active volcanos such as Redoubt.The other close ones would be off southern Mexico and various subduction zones in the Caribbean.

"Well, there is the Juan de Fuca plate being subducted beneath Oregon and Washington. That's where we get active volcanos such as Lassen, Rainier and Baker. There's also the Aleutian trench which extends from the Alaska Peninsula to Kamchatka with active volcanos such as Redoubt.The other close ones would be off southern Mexico and various subduction zones in the Caribbean"
--Ah yes, the latter ones were what I recalled at the time. I guess the exact surface area of the North American plate is a bit larger than I thought I could have remembered. Oh well, I learn and relearn something everyday.
--Meert made mention to obduction, I've heard the expression before but never payed too much attention I guess. I'm not quite positive but since obduction would make reference to a 'layering over', wouldn't the accreted sediment from descending lithospere during subduction be referred to obducted material?
--and John, no problem, I get things mixed up and get things wrong or a bit not quite right quite frequently at times. Happens to everyone and the only thing to worry about is exactly what edge pointed out and that you realize that what you said is just that. Unfortunately the majority of the participants which will turn up on this board will be that way but we still have a handful of good roots here. Also, one thing I have learned which would help anyone who carries out these types of debates and discussions is to watch the amount of confidence you put into your assertions. I try to make mine seem as open to new data and ideas as much as I can most of the time, it helps in relaxing things and making things flow less viscous, that is, more fluid if you know what I mean.-Cheers------------------

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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 07-06-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
--Meert made mention to obduction, I've heard the expression before but never payed too much attention I guess. I'm not quite positive but since obduction would make reference to a 'layering over', wouldn't the accreted sediment from descending lithospere during subduction be referred to obducted material?

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I do not have up to date references, but I am quite certain that obducted material refers to parts of the downgoing slab (usually oceanic) that have locally overiden the upper plate due to some structural complexity or inhomogeneity. Sort of like an overthrust. Though my texts are even more dated than my education, I believe that the Troodos massif of Cyprus is an obducted fragment of the oceanic crust.Accreted terranes are material that has been added to the leading edge of an upper plate. Accreted terranes are quite common, this being on of the ways in which continents have grown throughout the earth's history. An example would be the melange terrane (Fransiscan Formation) in California or some of the Permian to Jurassic island arcs all along the western edge of North/South America. Perhaps there is some more recent terminology used to make greater distinctions nowadays, but this is what I remember. Been away from it for a long time.

Indeed edge the terms have withstood the test of time! Much of the NW coast of North America is accreted terranes. The largest of these, Wrangellia, stretches from extreme SW Canada into Alaska. However, most of the marine strata in the mid-continent resulted from the incursion (and the fluctuations) of the sea during Paleozoic times.CheersJoe Meert

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Originally posted by Joe Meert:
Indeed edge the terms have withstood the test of time! Much of the NW coast of North America is accreted terranes. The largest of these, Wrangellia, stretches from extreme SW Canada into Alaska. However, most of the marine strata in the mid-continent resulted from the incursion (and the fluctuations) of the sea during Paleozoic times.

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Cheers

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Joe Meert

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Based on a strictly metallogenic interpretation, I might extend Wrangellia into the western US and even into South America, thought it is certainly not continuous from the basic terrane in Alaska/Canada.But why do we discuss this? I guess my only real point is that geology is perhaps a bit more complex and broad a subject than some of our creattionist friends here might think.

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[This message has been edited by edge, 07-07-2002]

Edge'Mountain ranges in various stages of erosion' could easily be due to the varying 3D topology. We got erosion of soft sediments. On top of that is 4500 years of non-flood erosion.My matter of fact pronouncement that the earth could be covered by the current amounts of water essentially comes from the fact that mainstream science has much of the earth covered at various times. If you want to quible over the last 10 or 20% that discussion will anount to predicting the exact 3D topography of the past. You can embark on that futile task if you wish. If most of the earth's surface has been covered I will simply argue the plausibility of all of it being coverable.I suspect that most vulcanism occurred during the flood but I am very uneducated on the Precambrian.Why don't you tell us which parts of the earth have no marine strata (I think someone else below has given some examples)?

JohnThe water came from the same place it did for the mainstream transgressions - the ocean! The 40 days of rain was presumably tectonically heated condensed steam. Your scenario has the same water problem and almost the same soluiton!Mainstream sceince does have the continents flat before the flood (for us Precambiran).The mainstream global sea-level curves over geological time show 1000 feet of rises.Tectonic events caused the innundations and regressions - this is the mainstream view. We just have the whole thing as quicker.What is your point about the mid-ocean ridges? I see that TC addresses the issue.

Andor.See my point to Edge - given that there exists marine strata over most of the earth's surface I will argue extremely good plausibility on this.Your Spanish example is suggestive for your POV of course. However, as you mentioned it is Precambrian and I very, very much doubt that the erosion of the entire Mesozoic and Cenozoic materials can be fully tracked.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
John

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The water came from the same place it did for the mainstream transgressions - the ocean! The 40 days of rain was presumably tectonically heated condensed steam. Your scenario has the same water problem and almost the same soluiton!

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JM: But you've no evidence to support this scenario. It is a 'what if this happened, then this might have happened'. You need data not mindless conjecture.

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Mainstream sceince does have the continents flat before the flood (for us Precambiran).

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JM: This is baloney! The Precambrian had mountains on a Himalayan scale.

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The mainstream global sea-level curves over geological time show 1000 feet of rises.

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JM: You mean total? Or over 300 meters at times? Sea-level fluctuated. By the way, are you going to tell us which strata represent the TOTALLY covered earth?

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Tectonic events caused the innundations and regressions - this is the mainstream view. We just have the whole thing as quicker.

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JM: No, it is not the complete mainstream view. Why don't you stop inventing the mainstream view and actually learn about it? [QUOTE]What is your point about the mid-ocean ridges? I see that TC addresses the issue.[/B][/QUOTE]JM: Well, here's mine that nobody has answered. This is a very serious problem for your 'tectonically induced' Gilgameshian flood story.CheersJoe Meert

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[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 07-07-2002]

JoeYour problem with our scenario is it's rapidity and whether it covered the entire earth.I apologize for making that statement about the Precambrian - I know very little about it except that many of the modern ranges are post that time. I will accept that there were mountains then and our argeument would probably have to be that they were upthrust during the flood.Given that there are about 6 main 1000 foot type innundations It is probably the last but that is simply a prediction. I would love to be able to study marine vs non-marine local geological columns - I plan to get around to it.Of course in our scenario it is natural to not expect this last covering to be visible everywhere. It essentially represents the post-flood surface of the earth and will have been eroded in the highlands. Lowland basins would be expected to reocrd this last covering but it will be absent in the highlands. We clearly will not expect to find worldwide strata everywhere. It will be represented in basins and shelves.So what is the mainstream view of innundaitons/regressions if they are not tectonic? Glaciers are only a minor component of the sea-level curves. I have actually read extensively on the issue and there is actually no clear consensus. But it's got to be tectonic surely?PS - I'll read your technical web site ASAP but at this stage I will simply point out that Baumgardner didn't even include accelerated radioheating in his model at that point.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 07-07-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
The water came from the same place it did for the mainstream transgressions - the ocean! The 40 days of rain was presumably tectonically heated condensed steam. Your scenario has the same water problem and almost the same soluiton!

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But mainstream geology never has to account for enough water to flood the entire Earth all at the same time. Major floods I can understand, but everything at once is very different.Oh... I live in Texas. Hot water vapor is very very bad!

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What is your point about the mid-ocean ridges? I see that TC addresses the issue.

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Yes he did, among others. I concede.Take care.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

JohnGo have a look at the Grand Canyon. The majority of the rocks were laid by marine transgressions. There were huge epeiric seas that covered much of North America. Many mountain ranges have sea shell fossils in them.If XX% of North America was covered then the chances are that XX% of Asia was too. Water maintains a level.So it is a non-issue. Whether 90% or 100% of the earth was covered does not change the method used to do it. You are simply trying to say you know the exact 3D topography of the pre-flood world!

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 07-07-2002]