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Author Topic:   For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 304 (220563)
06-28-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by gnojek
06-28-2005 4:01 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
Actually, most of the girls in porn these days make me totally appreciate my girfriend. She's way more attractive than the large majority of these girls.
Well, isn't that great for her.
Well, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that I'm not as attractive as most of the women in porn that I have seen.
I'm not unattractive, but I'm far from cellulite-and saddlebag-free.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by gnojek, posted 06-28-2005 4:01 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:38 PM nator has replied
 Message 282 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 6:19 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 182 of 304 (220564)
06-28-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Modulous
06-28-2005 4:22 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
Pictures of celebrities doing their normal routine with arrows pointing at cellulite, or at the belly that is forming, or an overly large bottom, wrinkles or the wrong dress. Maybe its meant to make people feel better than nobody has a perfect body, but I think it has the opposite effect to. "Hey, if Kylie's knees are too fat, then mine are freakish!"
Other than the gossip mags reaching possibly more people, I see no difference.
You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2005 4:22 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:25 PM nator has not replied
 Message 187 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:42 PM nator has not replied
 Message 198 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 1:45 AM nator has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 183 of 304 (220565)
06-28-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by nator
06-28-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
sure you do - the "gonzo" home-made porn that has become very popular is full of them - I have a friend who works in the industry so he fills me in.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 6:22 PM nator has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 304 (220566)
06-28-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by gnojek
06-28-2005 4:48 PM


I think perhaps degradation is in the eye of the beholder.
That's right: the beholder includes the doer. You are using the word "degradation" in a very odd way. Being fooled is not the same thing as being degraded. I might buy a car that I thought was good but turns out to be a lemon. I am not "degraded" by this, merely fooled. But if I was very sensitve about my car-knowledge, I suppose I might feel degraded. However, if I am forced to do things that I find humiliating and disgusting, then I have been degraded. This would not apply to the antics of those people at Benny Hinn's meetings unless you are implying that they are consciously faking these antics and do not want to but are being forced to fake such antics and that they find these actions humiliating.
If someone was a believer in Benny Hinn's faith healing powers and then later came to know that Hill was a fraud, then he might feel degraded at that later point in time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by gnojek, posted 06-28-2005 4:48 PM gnojek has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 185 of 304 (220567)
06-28-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
06-28-2005 6:15 PM


Re: A different thought
...which doesn't mean they exactly wanted to be there. Women have long done sexual things in order to keep a man. "If you really loved me you would do X."
Although it is true that their presence does not indicate that they wanted to be there, your insinuation that they don't because it is a sex movie is crap. People have long done things for people they love, which they might not exactly have chosen by themselves, in order to keep the one they love.
If I said when I went to church (or rock concert etc etc) I rarely saw such event where the audience did not include women brought by their bfs, would you have said that they were only there for their boyfriends?
The idea that women would be less likely to have wanted to do sexual things than men is patently sexist.
Yes there were and are cases of men who forced women into sexual acts they did not want, that does not cast a shadow over every other man. Nor does the prudishness of some women cast a shadow over all women.
You have got to escape the traditional feminist mindset.
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-28-2005 06:32 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 6:15 PM nator has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 186 of 304 (220568)
06-28-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
06-28-2005 6:20 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
Well, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that I'm not as attractive as most of the women in porn that I have seen.
You showed a pic of yourself and are hot. My guess is you just haven't seen much porn at all, and if you saw any probably concentrated on girls that you felt looked better than yourself.
Honestly, how much porn have you seen? How much of the market have you looked at to find what the average girl looks like?
There are whole sections devoted to the "not perfect" ideal, and even the "perfect" girls generally have flaws which can be seen.
Pride in one's body for what it is, and your sexuality, is all that is really necessary to be sexy. You may not be everyone's favorite, but does everyone please you?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 6:20 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 9:30 PM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 187 of 304 (220569)
06-28-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by nator
06-28-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you?
Very very few would ever concentrate on those aspects (though there are some) so now you don't really see such things in most porn. Though you can see them if you look because they are there.
In still image porn in the largest corporate mags you will not, because they airbrush everything out. If that is all you look at, then it is true you will not see it.
As CK has already pointed out the about to be crippled, though once booming, indie market is filled with natural as beautiful.
I believe I even mentioned some example sites you could look at. If you do not see it then you simply are not looking,

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 6:22 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:51 PM Silent H has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 304 (220570)
06-28-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
06-28-2005 6:15 PM


Re: A different thought
quote:
...which doesn't mean they exactly wanted to be there.
Hello, schraf.
Yes, I am aware that their presence didn't mean that they wanted to be there. On the other hand, this was when we were all in high school and college, and a lot of the attraction to pornography at this time was plain old curiosity -- this was in the late 70s and early 80s when there was very little explicit sexuality anywhere. I simply point out the possibility that some of these young women may have been as motivated by curiosity about sexuality as most of us men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 6:15 PM nator has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 189 of 304 (220572)
06-28-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Silent H
06-28-2005 6:42 PM


Framing the debate
It seems to me that we are debating two different things - Holmes and I (and a couple of others) seem to be discuss pornography in the broader sense from the girl with her webcam to the man and his wife with a video camera to the corporate produced and released material (which is very significant). Most of you seem to be focusing entirely on the corporate material. It's sort of like going to the multiplex and then complaining movies are rubbish because they are all shallow blockbusters.
In addition, many of you are unwilling to either discuss porn or clarify your positions in any meanful detail. That is your right but it makes it impossible to have any form of debate.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:52 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:42 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 6:59 PM CK has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 304 (220574)
06-28-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by CK
06-28-2005 6:51 PM


Re: Framing the debate
You're British, right? Let me inform you that here in the US, once the topic turns to sex people's brains pretty much turn off, and there is a good chance of outright hysteria setting in (especially when the topic is teen sex). It is pretty difficult to have a serious conversation about sex in this country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:51 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 7:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 191 of 304 (220575)
06-28-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Chiroptera
06-28-2005 6:59 PM


Re: Framing the debate
Hah - it's salary here, you NEVER NEVER discuss how much money you earn with people (not even your family).
For me it's not a matter of like or dislike (and I don't like or watch porn), it's a matter of freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 6:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 7:29 PM CK has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 304 (220578)
06-28-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by CK
06-28-2005 7:03 PM


Re: Framing the debate
That is funny -- here in the US it is so important to compare how much we earn with each other that we tatoo our salaries on our foreheads. (My paycheck is about $2200 a month after taxes, by the way.)
I actually have no opinion on whether or not porn is demeaning to women. I find what others have to say about it interesting. However, even if the majority of porn that is currently produced is demeaning, I figure that is simply part of being in a culture that is still intrinsically patriarchal. The solution, in my opinion, is to work toward a society that really does respect and value women as equal human beings (and pointing out misogyny in porn may be a part of this) -- then erotic art would naturally transform into a healthier expression of human sexuality -- fit, perhaps, even for children.
At any rate, I have never understood why those who are sincerely concerned with the well-being of women want to solve the "porn problem" by giving political power to a movement that is so overtly antagonistic to the well-being of women.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 7:03 PM CK has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 304 (220590)
06-28-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Silent H
06-28-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
You showed a pic of yourself and are hot.
Thanks, but honestly, you didn't see me naked.
Most people look better with carefully chosen clothing, most definitely me.
quote:
My guess is you just haven't seen much porn at all, and if you saw any probably concentrated on girls that you felt looked better than yourself.
Honestly, how much porn have you seen? How much of the market have you looked at to find what the average girl looks like?
I have looked around the internet, seen stuff that was supposed to appeal to straight men, to lesbians, to straight women, to gay men.
Nobody looked like me. They were nearly all either shapely and thin or really obese. I even saw a site which was supposed to appear as a diary or scorecard of a man who was having sex with "plain, ugly women" because they were so unattractive as to be desperate, and none of them had the body fat that I do. And I don't have a huge amount.
I'm sorry, I have searched specifically for average women several times out of curiosity, but I mostly only find extremes.
quote:
There are whole sections devoted to the "not perfect" ideal, and even the "perfect" girls generally have flaws which can be seen.
Like I said, I went looking and while it may be a niche, it certainly ain't common.
quote:
Pride in one's body for what it is, and your sexuality, is all that is really necessary to be sexy. You may not be everyone's favorite, but does everyone please you?
Yeah, well, that's easy to say and easy to intellectually "know" but not always so easy to believe.
Look, I'm not stupid. I know who the men at my workplace are attracted to and who they aren't. I know who the boys and men at high school and college were attracted to and who they weren't. I'm not the type that men generally think of as beautiful or sexy, I'm just not. I have found this to be the case both during times of low self esteem and high. I just don't care during the high self-esteem days.
You know who gives me that kind of flirtatious attention at work and in life? The 65 year old men and the middle-aged self-important ex-hippies who did too much acid in the late 60's who corner me to recite to me their manifesto. Oh, and the lesbians. The lesbians are sweet that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:38 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2005 10:10 PM nator has replied
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 5:44 AM nator has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 194 of 304 (220592)
06-28-2005 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by nator
06-28-2005 9:30 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
Can I just say? There's two kinds of physical attractiveness that a woman (for that matter, a person in general) can have; there's the kind that comes from being physically fit, and from having a personal style that works, and other "after-market" things. Then there's the stuff that you have to be born with. (God, please don't ask me to deliniate which is which. Stuff like symmetry, etc.)
Models are born with the latter, and their job is to develop the former (which they are obviously very good at). Porn actresses are usually women who lack the latter and try to make up for it with the former. (Not in all cases.) And very often really attractive-yet-shy women, who don't consider themselves attractive despite entreaties from others that they are, are born with often-times considerable natural attractiveness, but who - for very valid reasons - have underdeveloped skills in the other departments. (Tends to be the girl geeks.)
All I know is, I'm no 60-year-old or hippie with a manefesto (and definately not a lesbian), and I thought Holmes was dead-on. You've got that certain something that you just have to be born with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 9:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 10:53 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 283 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 6:25 PM crashfrog has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 195 of 304 (220596)
06-28-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by crashfrog
06-28-2005 10:10 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
Thanks, really, you are very sweet.
I guess I'm maybe just having a bad day and I'm letting all the critical voices in my head win.
I really just wish it wasn't so hard sometimes. It feels like such a lonely battle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2005 10:10 PM crashfrog has not replied

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