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Author Topic:   Violent propaganda
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 31 of 135 (199020)
04-13-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tal
04-13-2005 3:22 PM


Re: hm
Hahahahahahahhaha. Still in top form I see. Did you read the article?
It was not WMDs and it certainly wasn't what was under discussion by Bush. This was material and equipment we knew about and were monitoring.
The argument was for the vast "unknown" wmds, which later turned into wmd related program activities, which later turned into nothing, which now appear to be turning into the known chemicals and equipment under observation?
Oh yeah, did you miss the part where our invasion actually put more of this into unknown people's hands when we failed to secure them as the UN monitoring group suggested?
that was only 1 reason we went to war against Saddam.
That wasn't what I was asking about, just the wmd claim that they'd be revealed any moment.
But yes there are still threads you have disappeared from waiting for your replies on those other pipedream reasons. You don't have to bother with them though. I just wanted to needle you on the wmd promise.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tal, posted 04-13-2005 3:22 PM Tal has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 135 (199023)
04-13-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Syamsu
03-13-2005 7:22 AM


quote:
Try and look at this the other way around. What if some country decided to do like this on Americans or British, or Christians.
  —Syamsu
Aren't Islamic extremists already doing this? Burning effigies of our leaders, burning flags, calling christians the agents of satan, etc.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Syamsu, posted 03-13-2005 7:22 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 04-14-2005 10:10 AM Loudmouth has replied

  
StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 135 (199139)
04-14-2005 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
03-12-2005 6:39 PM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
"One thing that might break them? Drop money on them. Money and the tools of the Great Satan system of the west. They would in theory implode."
I know you make this as a joke, but what would the real effects of this be??
Not to say we should just drop money on them, but what if the US expanded aid and public relation efforts to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Look at it from a not militant citizen’s viewpoint.
What if the troops that your leaders have demonized suddenly are giving your food, rebuilding your child's school, giving you materials to make a new Masque, providing your religious leaders (non-militant ones) with Qur'ans to pass out to his followers , giving toys to your children, and giving you medicine to cure your family's sicknesses.
It still wouldn't convince the hardcore fundis, but would providing more for the average Iraqi (I’m sure the majority of them are not actively trying to kill us) help to sway them into supporting us more than supporting the Iraqi resistance? Once public favor turned to our favor, most of our military’s problems would be solved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 03-12-2005 6:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-14-2005 4:15 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 135 (199140)
04-14-2005 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by StormWolfx2x
04-14-2005 4:07 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
It does make sense, does it not? I think that the REAL reason that we are at war is because 2% of the worlds population which owns or controls 90% of everything was threatened economically. We have spent over one hundred billion dollars on this war so far. If we had spent 50 billion dollars in foreign aid...giving away material goods instead of handing money over to potentially crooked leaders...who knows what type of good will would have been generated?
Ironic how we worry about Social Security domestically. Being at war is quite an insecure thing in and of itself, don't you think?
And the bottem line is this: There are as many if not more potential terrorists out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-14-2005 4:07 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 135 (199165)
04-14-2005 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
04-14-2005 4:15 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
I think the REAL reason we went to war was because, like you said the US feels threatened, but I would say its not entirely economicly based.
heres something to think about
first understand that power is interconnected and one type of power can and often does lead to other types of power.
1. the US is losing or has lost its vast economic advantage on the post WW2 world, both because other countries have rebuilt the infrostucture and the US is turning into a white-collar society.
2. the US lost its huge worldwide political advantage with the collaspe of the USSR.
3. the US still has a huge Military advantage over the rest of the world, but American society with no apparent enimies (communists, nazis etc.) cannot see why we should continue to spend vast ammounts to maintain said military.
4. Our strong military is really the only thing that keeps American society, and to a lesser extent western culture, on top, so American leaders saw it fit to create a war in order to maintin our military stregth.
its late and Im tired, so im cannot finish all my thoughts, but just a fyi I plan on editing this later, plz keep that in mind if you respond to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-14-2005 4:15 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 135 (199170)
04-14-2005 7:01 AM


quote:
To maintain this position of disparity [U.S. military-economic supremacy]... we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming.... We should cease to talk about vague and... unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standard and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts.... The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.
George Kennan, Director of Policy Planning, U.S. State Department, 1948
quote:
The fact that some elements [of the U.S. military/government] may appear to be potentially ‘out of control’ can be beneficial to creating and reinforcing fears and doubts within the minds of an adversary’s decision makers...
That the U.S. may become irrational and vindictive if its vital interests are attacked should be a part of the national persona we project to all adversaries... It hurts to portray ourselves as too fully rational and cool-headed...
U.S. Strategic Command, Essentials of Post-Cold War Deterrence, 1995
quote:
To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire, and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace.
Tacitus
This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-14-2005 06:01 AM

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 37 of 135 (199230)
04-14-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Loudmouth
04-13-2005 5:50 PM


It's not the same thing. Those things are only to whip up anger amongst their own, not even aimed at demoralizing the West.
But I think there's a lot of propaganda of Islamic extremists aimed at the West about the war being for oil, or any other thing, and that it wasn't really about removing a proven dangerous dictator, who became more of a threat because of the 911 terrorist attack. That propaganda has been very effective in demoralizing the West I would say.
Actually the countries that opposed the war did so for blatant economic selfinterest, like Russia and France, who both had, oh what a coincedence, strong economic ties with Iraq.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Loudmouth, posted 04-13-2005 5:50 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 41 by Wounded King, posted 04-15-2005 7:29 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 38 of 135 (199239)
04-14-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by StormWolfx2x
04-14-2005 6:26 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the REAL reason we went to war was because, like you said the US feels threatened, but I would say its not entirely economicly based.
Not feels threatened.....IS threatened and has been repeatedly attacked both at home and in multiple countries with promises of more from the bad guys.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-14-2005 6:26 AM StormWolfx2x has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 6:38 AM Tal has replied
 Message 44 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 8:37 PM Tal has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 135 (199357)
04-14-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Syamsu
04-14-2005 10:10 AM


quote:
It's not the same thing. Those things are only to whip up anger amongst their own, not even aimed at demoralizing the West.
What's to stop Islamic extremists from saying the same thing if the West uses violent propoganda?
quote:
Actually the countries that opposed the war did so for blatant economic selfinterest, like Russia and France, who both had, oh what a coincedence, strong economic ties with Iraq.
The majority of the POPULACE in those countries were against the war and they never saw one red cent of any monies.

This message is a reply to:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 135 (199516)
04-15-2005 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tal
04-14-2005 10:26 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
quote:
with promises of more from the bad guys.
You ARE the bad guys. The villains. The Black Hats. The evildoers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tal, posted 04-14-2005 10:26 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tal, posted 04-15-2005 11:07 AM contracycle has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 41 of 135 (199520)
04-15-2005 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Syamsu
04-14-2005 10:10 AM


a proven dangerous dictator, who became more of a threat because of the 911 terrorist attack.
In what way?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 04-14-2005 10:10 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Syamsu, posted 04-17-2005 12:46 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 42 of 135 (199562)
04-15-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by contracycle
04-15-2005 6:38 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
You ARE the bad guys. The villains. The Black Hats. The evildoers.
Feel free to point a weapon in my general direction.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 6:38 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 135 (199670)
04-15-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
04-14-2005 4:15 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
quote:
It does make sense, does it not? I think that the REAL reason that we are at war is because 2% of the worlds population which owns or controls 90% of everything was threatened economically.
"Threatened?"
Hardly.
Iraq has the second largest untapped oil reserve in the world.
It was greed and protectionism, nothing less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-14-2005 4:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 135 (199672)
04-15-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tal
04-14-2005 10:26 AM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
quote:
Not feels threatened.....IS threatened and has been repeatedly attacked both at home and in multiple countries with promises of more from the bad guys.
Iraq didn't attack the US.
Osama bin Laden did, remember?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tal, posted 04-14-2005 10:26 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by IANAT, posted 04-16-2005 10:36 AM nator has replied
 Message 46 by IANAT, posted 04-16-2005 10:56 AM nator has replied

  
IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 135 (199748)
04-16-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
04-15-2005 8:37 PM


Re: The Great Satan defines itself
Repeatedly over years since WTC attack, American "intelligence" was duped. Isn't it quite possible that your President, whom many of Americans call 'idiot', and his many advisors was also duped by some clever Arabs who saw advantage by removing Saddam by creating a convincing case of weapons of mass destruction?
Or, isn't is quite possible that the use of oil revenue by Saddam and friendly European traders to fund military power in Iraq and other countries was an eventual threat to Israel and of bringing USA into a war that would bring massive causualites of life and business to Americans?
Of course the reasons for war are power and money. In sports there is the saying "the best offense is a good defense". That is true in power as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 8:37 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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