Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man

My apologies for diverting Ray's attention. I had no idea that he would make such a big deal about something so obvious.

Thanks Ray.
Velikovsky looks like a colourful character, and I'm not at all sure that the planets move around and blow up quite as often as he proposes, but I'll go and do my homework before I comment on his timeline...

I never claimed the Bible records Jehu's defeat.Let me repeat:The Bible says the Israelites will be smitten before their enemies if they forsake God via idol worship.The Bible says Jehu departed not from the sins of Jeroboam.The link shows what Shalmaneeser made Jehu do which confirms the Deuteronomy passage (and others). 2Kings 10:29

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Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.The Torah says Jacob and 70 souls went down to Egypt after Pharoah exalted Joseph. His successors were the birthright off-spring of Judah.c.1580 BC the Egyptians defeated the Hyksos/Shepherd Kings leaving their brethern the children of Israel in slavery until the Exodus in 1453 BC.RM

Parrot,It's hard for me to stop laughing long enough to type anything up on Velikovsky. Sounds like you are a Python fan and if you read up on Velikovsky a bit you will understand a little better where this debate is taking place, like a little NW of Never Never Land where the Buffalo roam and cigarette trees and lemonade streams...well a lot like an episode of the MP's Flying Circus, and where it would take a logician of the caliber of Lewis Carroll to untangle the through the looking glass arguments, but this is probably the best entertainiment in this forum!Share and enjoy!
lfen

The "Worlds in Collision" stuff you are referring to is not claimed by me to have relevance here.What is relevant is: "Ages in Chaos", 1952.

http://www.hshideaway.com/chap15.htmAges in ChaosAges in ChaosNo need beating round the bush any longer.The evidence in the links is:THE GRANDEST AND MOST IRREFUTABLE AND SPECTACULAR EXTERNAL PROOF OF BIBLICAL CORROBORATION.I will wait before I slam home all of the ramifications, namely that Thutmose III lived and reigned in the 10 century BC.RM

it would be, maybe, if we were dealing with the loch ness monster or bigfoot. they're not exactly mythological creatures. are you serious?aside from the fact that buffalo exist in north america, and we have bones and gravesites, as attested to above, and pictured here,and aside from the fact that a whole industry popped up finding uses for all of the bones,and aside from the fact that the government commissioned the slaughter to battle the natives,and aside from the fact that teddy roosevelt himself wrote about how to hunt bison and references their near mass extinction:

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The rapid and complete extermination of the buffalo affords an excellent instance of how a race, that has thriven and multiplied for ages under conditions of life to which it has slowly fitted itself by a process of natural selection continued for countless generations, may succumb at once when these surrounding conditions are varied by the introduction of one or more new elements, immediately becoming the chief forces with which it has to contend in the struggle for life.

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Theodore Roosevelt (1858—1919). Hunting Trips of a Ranchman. 1885.
CHAPTER VIII -- THE LORDLY BUFFALO

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and aside from all of the records we have, such as statistics (such as government estimates of buffalo population down to just a few hundred in 1885)and, you know, aside from the photos of things like this hideyard in kansas in 1878. (note the caption: 40,000 buffalo hides) shit, wait, what your point again? what more do you want? do you want me to mail you some buffalo bones? would that help? no, i just find it funny that you're challenging something as not existing to a person who's just said they grew up surrounded by it. tthat's like arguing the public school system doesn't exist. depends. were you an eyewitness to exodus? no, it's not actually. the hominid bit is off-topic, sure. but the request for proof of hebrew occupancy of egypt is not. you're asserting it happened, record or not. there should be SOME proof. hell, i'll even grant you that they took their dead with them. but surely, someone left a pot or a jar or something.but tell you what. i'll modify my challenge. i'll show you a dead bison for every hebrew artifact found in egypt. that puts you about 100,000 behind from just the two pictures i posted here. alright. then just answer this question: where in the bible does it record the story of king jehu of israel's defeat at the hands of shalmanessar 3? no, you can't. i've asked you three simple questions.1. where is the least bit of archaeological evidence for hebrews in egypt?
2. where is the identification of hyksos as zaharites? (in the bible or otherwise)
3. where is the biblical record of jehu's defeat?you've claimed to have support for all three, but have not shown any. if you want to forgo the first one and a half for now, sure. that requires some archaeological research. but for the biblical aspects, you have your bible and blueletterbible.org to search it. and it's not that hard. you've taken at least that ammount of time to respond here.so where in the bible does it mention hyksos or jehu losing?This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-19-2005 11:12 PM

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אָרַח

you said, in the op:

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Only the Bible records the defeats of its subject the Israelites = proof supporting Divine control of content

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the proof of the divine control of content of the bible is that it records the defeat of its subjects, unlike other all other near-east cultures. am i misrepresenting you here?you cited this as an example:

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The best one is Jehu bowing down to Shalmaneser III (5th picture scroll down)

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but the bible does NOT record this event. so where is your proof of divinely controlled content? isn't suspicious that it's missing? i'm quite familiar with this steele. but it doesn't confirm anything in the bible. for instance, the inscription, as your link even indicates, says "jehu, son of omri." got a bible handy? who was jehu's daddy? the sin of jeroboam is this: having a temple outside jerusalem. according to deuteronomy 12, this is a greivous sin. but what was israel to do when it became a separate nation? send all of it's citizens to jerusalem every saturday? sounds like a lot of work!also, many, many other temples existed prior to josiah. so jehu is being held to a standard that only existed AFTER his death, and the "discovery" of the book of deuteronomy. while we're throwing the idolatry charge about.

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Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

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so israel was expected not only to not have a temple of its own, but it was held to a double standard. they have calves their mercy seat -- that's bad. but judah can have winged babies, and that's ok. i fail to see how one is different than the other.in fact, i fail to see any evidence that ANY mesopotamian society ever worshipped their idols. their idols served one of three purposes:1. representation of the offering. a permament offering made of valuable materials.
2. representation of the offeree. classic big-eyed babylonian idol. places in the temple as an image of the person doign the offering, so they could do other stuff too.
3. a vehicle for the god. mesopotamian gods are always aniconic: you can't depict them. yahweh is one such god. but since other similar cultures (like india) tend to place their gods standing or sitting on animals as a vehicle, sometimes just the vehicle itself is depicted, and the god is said to be on top of that depiction, or idol. sound like the mercy seat to you?if judah's idol is ok, what's wrong with israel's? and that makes them hyksos how exactly? a fanciful hypothetical. but unsupported.

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אָרַח

i posted some pictures. it's his move now, the score's about 100k to 0, in terms of bison v. hebrew artifacts from egypt.

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אָרַח

Yeah, but, he has the IRREFUTABLE VELIKOVSKY on this side! You can't refute the irrefutable! That's a contradiction in terms ya know. Ya'll lost before the debate ever began! lfen

I'm waiting with bated breath. In case anybody's interested, here are a few bison references:
Sorry, that webpage does not exist! | Regina Public Library
http://www.experiencenature.com/Unearth.html#pic
Bison Producers of Alberta :: Page Not Found

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

references, pft. words lie. he doesn't believe in modern eyewitness accounts, let alone HISTORY.let's see if he likes pictures. pictures can be pretty convincing. in all seriousness, i really am. i want really want some archaeological evidence of hebrews in egypt.

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אָרַח

But, isn't Velikovsky's resynchronisation of history using catastrophic events as datum points? I could draw parallels between between the current US administration and the rise of Nazi Germany (just change the names) but all you've got to do is point at a calender and it falls to pieces. You may not claim it has relevance, but it does seem to be the basis for Ages in Chaos.This message has been edited by Dead Parrot, 05-20-2005 09:03 PM

agh! i can't believe i didn't catch this the first time. i would have editted it, but this deserved it's own response.regarding the identity of the hyksos: jacob = israel.the 70 people are listed in genesis 46. they are jacob, and his sons. not counting their wives, but counting jacob.so it's not jacob AND 70 souls, it's 70 men, including jacob, joseph, joseph's two sons, and joseph's eleven other brothers and their sons. thus, all of the 70 listed in the bible were sons of israel: israelites. the people who left in the exodus. genesis 46 even contains the prophesy of the exodus: "i myself will go down to egypt with you, and i myself will bring you back."this is markedly different from the hyksos, who invaded en masse and took over. how can you assert this? have you even read genesis and exodus?This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-20-2005 12:09 AM

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אָרַח

My understanding that "Pithom" is also derived from Atum. There is no Pharoah named "Thom".Nemtisaf II was a Pharoah of the 6th Dynasty, way too early to be involved in the Exodus.