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Author Topic:   A Question About Deception
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 16 of 75 (319995)
06-10-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by nator
06-10-2006 2:59 PM


Topic Caution!
Schraf, Rand:
I see how these couple of posts are on the current topic. But they teeter on the edge of falling far from it.
Please wrap this bit quickly or take it elsewhere.
I could suggest this approach:
Schraf, you can agree with Rand that God is totally unknowable and that we can have no clue what is good and evil from our inability to know.
The fact that the Bible has a commandment about "baring false witness" can be ignored if you can allow someone to be mislead by simple setting a trap. If God is the source of right and wrong we learn by his use of such traps that it is ok.
So maybe we have been fooled but it is ok to fool someone cause God does it.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 75 (320001)
06-10-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by randman
06-10-2006 3:04 PM


Re: no deception
quote:
But our selfishness and depravity stems from our sin, and thinking God is wrong because He made the world in a manner where not every answer is clear is the result of that depravity.
But do we or do we not possess the same Knowledge of Good and Evil as God?

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 Message 14 by randman, posted 06-10-2006 3:04 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by randman, posted 06-10-2006 4:02 PM nator has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 18 of 75 (320003)
06-10-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by randman
06-10-2006 3:04 PM


Re: no deception
[ABE - Posted after Admin warning, deleted]
Edited by anglagard, : provoking possible off-topic discussion

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 75 (320022)
06-10-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by nator
06-10-2006 3:25 PM


Re: no deception
We possess the knowledge of good and evil in the sense of having a conscience. We do not possess perfect reasoning, nor do we possess perfect knowledge of things and events, and so with imperfect reasoning and imperfect knowledge, we have flawed analysis in respect to God, and so insisting that because at some point with severely flawed analysis we misunderstand something, God has deceived us is flat out absurd.
You are equating the knowledge of good and evil with knowledge in general in this instance, and moreover, our knowledge of good and evil does not lead me, for example, to believe just because I have the ability to be honestly wrong, that somehow God has deceived me. it's not the knowledge of good and evil that leads you to accuse God of deception, but your own delusion.
Just because God created a world that could be subjected to and is now subjected to sin and imperfection does not mean God deceives you, but if you read the gospels, you will find that Jesus often spoke at a higher level that people misunderstood. It's pretty clear God doesn't consider it deception to speak the truth, even knowing some will misinterpret it, and frankly, I don't consider it deception from God either. God is above us, and demanding He submit to our whims and insist He only communicate at our level and wipe away all mystery and confusion is not a moral stance, but an immoral one.
With that said, how much further should we go with this topic considering admin's weighing in?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 75 (320026)
06-10-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Shh
06-10-2006 3:18 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
What changed in the story was the Fall of man, which the Bible clearly indicates caused a change in the program, the nature of life on earth and the universe.
Also if this is the case then the world was simultaneously, created in six days, and is as old as science suggests, in which case why argue for a young earth?
I don't argue for a young earth, but some do and they present physical arguments. Imo, the Bible does not indicate that the days of creation are 24 hour periods, but at the same time, if that was the case, the earth could still be very ancient and the 24 hour "day" idea be true. Certainly, relativity would lean to describing the earth as a streak through space-time rather than a ball in space in time, and it is quite possible there are causal events that affect the past from the present and future. The idea that the past is static is a mere assumption, one that I believe will be shown to be wrong.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2006 1:50 PM randman has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 75 (320080)
06-10-2006 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by randman
06-10-2006 4:02 PM


Re: no deception
So, I guess we do not have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil according to you.
I guess Genesis has it wrong?

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 Message 22 by randman, posted 06-10-2006 9:15 PM nator has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 22 of 75 (320254)
06-10-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
06-10-2006 6:12 PM


Re: no deception
I suggest you reread your Bible a little more closely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 06-10-2006 6:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 06-10-2006 11:19 PM randman has replied
 Message 29 by ramoss, posted 06-11-2006 8:10 AM randman has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 23 of 75 (320313)
06-10-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by randman
06-10-2006 9:15 PM


Re: no deception
It's plain to me that we do have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil if one reads Genesis plainly.
Otherwise, A&E wouldn't have been kicked out of Eden. They had already become as gods by eating of this tree and were very close to going all the way and becoming immortal if they also ate of the Tree of Life.
Oh, and it says nothing in Genesis about the Fall causing humans to lose this ability. It does mention something about the pains of childbirth and the subjigation of Women to men, and also it mentions that the earth will be much harder to work to produce crops.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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 Message 22 by randman, posted 06-10-2006 9:15 PM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 75 (320397)
06-11-2006 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
06-10-2006 11:19 PM


Re: no deception
Rather than argue that point, I think you need to realize the Bible presents man as justifying his own sinfulness as well, and that life shows us that as well. I, for one, do not see the erroneous judgements of evos based on their own faulty analysis as evidence of God being deceptive and think your argument is quite bizarre to assert that. It's even more bizarre for evos to claim to understand the Fall and the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Certainly, men are born with a conscience to know good and evil. To suggest their perception is ever completely on par with God is rather silly.
To be "as one of us" does not mean man is equal to God in moral clarity and perception. it just means he knows the difference in good and evil. but even with that innate knowledge, man's mind has reason within it and reason that is often faulty, a good example being claiming that if something looks to an evo one way based on evos adopting prejudicial assumptions, that somehow this is all God's fault.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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 Message 23 by nator, posted 06-10-2006 11:19 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Shh, posted 06-11-2006 7:03 AM randman has replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 7:52 AM randman has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 75 (320420)
06-11-2006 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by lfen
06-10-2006 2:22 PM


Re: no deception
without attempting to sound arrogant, I can tell the kind of stuff I can see truth and truisms within.

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Replies to this message:
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Shh
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 75 (320437)
06-11-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
06-11-2006 1:57 AM


Re: no deception
a good example being claiming that if something looks to an evo one way based on evos adopting prejudicial assumptions, that somehow this is all God's fault.
No offense, but this theory opens up some vast problems imo.
The story of the fall has always looked silly to me. God punishes Adam and Eve for breaking a rule. The rule is not to eat the fruit.
Eating the fruit is an evil/sinful act, but without eating the fruit, they cannot understand this.
Catch22? I thought so.
Now, tho it appears that the eating of the fruit, which caused man's ability to commit evil, may have caused them to decide to eat the fruit in the first place.
But it's even more nosensical than punishing them for becoming capable of understanding good and evil, which is a perrequisite of being good.
Make any sense to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 06-11-2006 1:57 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 06-12-2006 6:46 PM Shh has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 75 (320445)
06-11-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
06-11-2006 1:57 AM


Re: no deception
quote:
To be "as one of us" does not mean man is equal to God in moral clarity and perception.
Is this specifically noted to be the case in Genesis, because I read it through several times and I cannot see this caveat.
All I see is that A&E were banished from Eden for eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because God was worried that they were half way to becoming Gods themselves. All they had left to do to become as Gods was to eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 28 of 75 (320451)
06-11-2006 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
06-09-2006 9:56 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
That is a bad analogy. It would take much more work to put the proper ratios, and all the little details to 'age' the earth. That is everything from the sedement layers, to the glaciers, to the radiometric dating, and other various items.
The only conclusion I personally draw is that it isn't that God deceived man about the age of the earth.. but man deceived himself by declaring that god made a young earth.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 29 of 75 (320453)
06-11-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by randman
06-10-2006 9:15 PM


Re: no deception
And I suggest that you do, particualry the book of Genesis.
I would also suggest you read it with a good Jewish commentary.
The items you claim are in there are not in there at all, if you look at it from a Hebrew perspective.
As a matter of fact, the entire story of Adam and Eve has so much puns and political commnetary in it, it is obvious it is not really history at all. It also says nothing about the age of the world. That is something that was read INTO it, rather than something that was inherent to the story.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 30 of 75 (320494)
06-11-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
06-11-2006 3:22 AM


Re: no deception
without attempting to sound arrogant, I can tell the kind of stuff I can see truth and truisms within.
You don't sound arrogant to me, however, I want to point out that you are the one who consistently dismisses human knowing as fallible and yet in this statement you are basing your decisions on your human abililty to recognize truth and truisms. Have you read anything Ramana had to say?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 06-11-2006 3:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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