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Author Topic:   evidence confirms biblical depiction of Edom
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 91 (321006)
06-13-2006 1:35 AM


Today, the Edomites are again in the thick of combat ” of the scholarly kind. The conflict is heated and protracted, as is often the case with issues related to the reliability of the Bible as history.
Chronology is at the crux of the debate. Exactly when did the nomadic tribes of Edom become an organized society with the might to threaten Israel? Were David and Solomon really kings of a state with growing power in the 10th century B.C.? Had writers of the Bible magnified the stature of the two societies at such an early time in history?
An international team of archaeologists has recorded radiocarbon dates that they say show the tribes of Edom may have indeed come together in a cohesive society as early as the 12th century B.C., certainly by the 10th. The evidence was found in the ruins of a large copper-processing center and fortress at Khirbat en-Nahas, in the lowlands of what was Edom and is now part of Jordan.
In a Ruined Copper Works, Evidence That Bolsters a Doubted Biblical Tale - The New York Times
Edited by randman, : better or not?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-13-2006 3:49 AM randman has replied
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 9:44 PM randman has replied
 Message 10 by rgb, posted 06-17-2006 9:53 PM randman has not replied
 Message 54 by Jaderis, posted 07-08-2006 4:52 AM randman has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 91 (321025)
06-13-2006 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-13-2006 1:35 AM


Not "Coffee House" type material - Sending this to "Proposed New Topics"
1) Needs a better topic title - Work "Edomites" into one.
2) Needs some input from you. What was the controversy before this new information, and how does this new information change things.
Adminnemooseus
Note: Current title is "evidence confirms "doubted biblical tale"".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 06-13-2006 1:35 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 91 (321026)
06-13-2006 3:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 91 (321503)
06-14-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
06-13-2006 3:49 AM


Re: Not "Coffee House" type material - Sending this to "Proposed New Topics"
It was meant as a Coffee House thread talking about something I read in the news, not as a dissertation. I changed the title. Why not promote it?
You think the NYTs is misreporting this as a major development in this field? If so, promote it and make that comment.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 06-15-2006 9:08 AM randman has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 91 (321779)
06-15-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
06-14-2006 3:58 PM


Re: Not "Coffee House" type material - Sending this to "Proposed New Topics"
Hi Randman!
We try to keep creation/evolution topics out of [forum=-14], and I think Adminnemooseus was just trying to figure out whether it belonged in the [forum=-35] forum or in one of the discussion forums. Did you see this as something you wanted to discuss (in which case [forum=-1] might be best), or just as something you wanted to bring to the attention of other people (in which case [forum=-35] might be best)?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 06-14-2006 3:58 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 91 (322467)
06-17-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
06-13-2006 3:49 AM


Re: Not "Coffee House" type material - Sending this to "Proposed New Topics"
Adminnemooseus writes:
Needs some input from you. What was the controversy before this new information, and how does this new information change things.
I agree that there should be input from Randman here as to what his opinion is on this and something to stimulate discussion on the aspects of it that Randman wishes to address.
I also don't see it as a Coffee House item and would concur with Admin's choices of Forums. Perhaps Rand could choose one of those.
I won't be logged in again until later tomorrow. I've offer my 2 cents worth as requested in PNT.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 91 (322702)
06-17-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Admin
06-15-2006 9:08 AM


Re: Not "Coffee House" type material - Sending this to "Proposed New Topics"
OK, let's go with the Bible accuracy forum. The problem with asking for more input is that I think the article contains sufficient info on it's own. Obviously, I believe the Bible is correct. The folks arguing that Edom was not an organized nation believe otherwise. That's the issue.
This is not an area I am fully informed on so I really cannot give a whole lot more details than that as I haven't studied the details of the positions prior to this discovery. I have been aware of them, but in my experience the critical positions in Bible history have often been advanced with very little substance to back it and franklly have been rather boring as a result (admittedly the other side has been advanced as well without a lot of scientific evidence for it but just based on the Bible).
But I do think it's worth discussion and that's what the forum is for, right?
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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 Message 5 by Admin, posted 06-15-2006 9:08 AM Admin has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 91 (322718)
06-17-2006 8:16 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 91 (322736)
06-17-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-13-2006 1:35 AM


edom, in genesis
quote:
An international team of archaeologists has recorded radiocarbon dates that they say show the tribes of Edom may have indeed come together in a cohesive society as early as the 12th century B.C., certainly by the 10th.
i'd like to point out that edom, according to the bible, was a kingdom LONG before israel. the earliest mention of edom as a country is in genesis 32, and the earliest confirmation that they have kings is in genesis 36:
quote:
Gen 36:31 And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.
it's a little hard to tell specifically when this is, because it goes through a long un-dated genealogy first. but it's clear that these kings are before israel had a king.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 06-13-2006 1:35 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 06-17-2006 11:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 91 (322744)
06-17-2006 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-13-2006 1:35 AM


Did the discovery of the City of Troy in Asia Minor confirm Greek Mythology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 06-13-2006 1:35 AM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 91 (322764)
06-17-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by arachnophilia
06-17-2006 9:44 PM


Re: edom, in genesis
So when do you think the Bible states Israel had a king? When was Saul's reign?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 9:44 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 11:16 PM randman has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 91 (322767)
06-17-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
06-17-2006 11:05 PM


Re: edom, in genesis
if i recall correctly (and i may not), most hold that david was about 10th century bc.
12th century bc would be closer to the time of the exodus, and i suspect that the bible is placing edom even before that, though i can't actually do the math without the numbers.
just pointing that edom pops up as a kingdom in genesis, and is probably before the exodus, so there might be a little further to go. again, not to familiar here, just trying to forward some information i thought might be pertinant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 06-17-2006 11:05 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 06-17-2006 11:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 91 (322770)
06-17-2006 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
06-17-2006 11:16 PM


Re: edom, in genesis
Well, David was the age of Jonathan, Saul's son, correct. So the time periods correspond well with the Bible. In terms of Genesis, I'd have to look at the references but one might say Israel existed as a tribe way back in Aberaham's time, but still was not a nation. So we would have to look at the language.
Edom comes from the descendants of Esau, right? So considering that, it is hard to see how Genesis dates Edom but so far back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 11:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 11:47 PM randman has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 91 (322772)
06-17-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
06-17-2006 11:39 PM


Re: edom, in genesis
Well, David was the age of Jonathan, Saul's son, correct. So the time periods correspond well with the Bible
that doesn't follow. we're not given a timeframe for the edomite kings in genesis, just that they are descended from esau (edom), and a number of generations. i think you fill this number of generations to be smaller than the number of generations between jacob (esau's brother) and exodus, and that would make edom older than the timeframe in the above article, according to the bible.
i'll count them if you want. i just, well, i really hate genealogies.
In terms of Genesis, I'd have to look at the references but one might say Israel existed as a tribe way back in Aberaham's time, but still was not a nation. So we would have to look at the language.
israel comes from abraham, so, no they did not. we don't get anyone called israel until jacob -- esau's brother. so the kingdoms of edom and israel are brother kingdoms, but according to genesis, edom had kings first.
Edom comes from the descendants of Esau, right? So considering that, it is hard to see how Genesis dates Edom but so far back.
right, it's several generations after esau, but i don't think it's enough generations to bring it contemporary to the exodus. i'll go count, and come back.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 06-17-2006 11:39 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 06-17-2006 11:56 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 91 (322773)
06-17-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
06-17-2006 11:47 PM


Re: edom, in genesis
2 different things
First, you seemed to be disputing Edom was a kingdom when Israel was in the Bible. Are you backing off that?
Second, you bring up Genesis without quotes. Provide the details, but this is a separate issue as to when Genesis implies Edom was a kingdom.
Moses in one place is referred to as a king or ruling as a king as well, though generally not considered so and usually not considered so. The real issue is when did Edom become a kingdom, not whether someone was a king over them. In other words, when did the nation-state begin as oppossed to the tribe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2006 11:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 06-18-2006 12:18 AM randman has not replied
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 12:57 PM randman has replied

  
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