Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

For heaven's sake, the topic is belief. I listed the exhortations to belief to demonstrate how important it is in the Bible. You can't draw any conclusions whatever about obedience from that! This is a non sequitur. You are free to follow anybody you like, but the point is that being called to believe what God's representatives have to say is a Biblical thing. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the particular importance of BELIEVING as such, and I've shown that this is peculiarly a BIBLICAL emphasis.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 10:59 AM

Faith, I am sorry that I do not have the full understanding of this complete thread. Bear with me, though. I am not posting to irritate or upset anybody... and if I do, then it is not done on purpose. I do not understand why you would call this a non-sequitur. The point is that if you chose to follow somebodies rules, then you have to accept their authority to issue such rules. And, if the person claims to be a messanger from God, then belief is the only way for that somebody to get this authority.To put it another way, the only reason why you follow the rules laid out in the Bible is because you believe that the Bible is the word of God. The only reason why other people follow other religious rules is because they believe that other messengers bring the word of God.There is really no religion that works without believing. Well, Faith, you may have shown that in the Bible 'believing' is emphasized. But, of course, that does not mean that you have shown that believing is peculiar or unique to the Christian faith. In fact, I think that you are incorrect. Belief or faith is an inherent component of all religions.

I wasn't talking about the whole thread, just the latest topic about whether a person can choose to believe, and that leads to the question of the importance of belief. OK. Yes, you have to accept the person's authority and obey what he says, and belief in the person's authority is involved to that point, but belief as such is not the key to salvation anywhere but in the Bible. Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except by Me" and that is a proposition strictly to be believed, not obeyed -- the way to God is through Jesus Christ. John says (3:16) that eternal life will be given to those who believe on the Son of God, a proposition strictly to be believed. Thomas wouldn't believe what the other disciples said about Jesus' not being in the tomb but being risen -- Jesus showed himself to Thomas but made it clear that believing what the disciples had told him would have been the better thing to do. In a sense that is true. But it is still also true that you don't find much in the way of actual propositions that you are asked to believe anywhere but in the Bible. Other religions simply ask the basic acceptance of their authority and then they tell you what to do, not to believe. In the sense I've shown, I believe that is not the case.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 11:28 AM

Faith, what would somebody else base their 'basic acceptance of their authority' on, other than belief or faith? Well, I am not sure you have, Faith. You have shown that in the Bible the concept of belief is explicitly spelled out. And I think you also have shown that in the Qu'aran belief is not specifically mentioned. However, that does not show that Christianity is the only religion where belief or faith is emphasized.This message has been edited by Hrun, 06-03-2005 11:37 AM

I was suggesting that Schrafinator could simply read what Jesus says or one of the gospel writers says and simply believe it -- something perhaps that is not easy to believe for her but also not too hard. Did he talk to the devil in the desert? Did he turn water into wine? Did he raise the dead? Is he God? These are statements of fact that can only be believed because they cannot be proved.But here's something from the Koran: Sure you have to believe that this is the will of God, but it is a call to action, not to belief. There's little in the Koran one could suggest to Schrafinator that she try to believe as it's mostly instructions to action.That is all I was trying to demonstrate.{EDIT: But yes you are right that even with the Koran you have to believe that Allah is God and that everything he commands is right.}This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 11:46 AM

And all I was trying to demonstrate is what you say in the first sentence: For all religions you have to believe that you are indeed following the will or word of God.

Fine. I give up. I simply wanted Schrafinator to see that there are explicit statements in the Bible that one is called to believe on the authority of Jesus or the disciples. She can try the same experiment with the Koran if there's anything similar.

Hi Faith,Your request of Schrafinator appears pretty straight forward and simple. However, it still hinges on the answer to her question. Can you actually choose to believe something?Can you choose to believe, for instance, that Jesus isn't the Son of God?How about that 2 plus 2 is not 4?Maybe that you detest your favorite dessert?

Yes, it could still be impossible to choose to believe no matter what, but I wanted to clarify that it's not like asking somebody to believe an abstract concept, it's asking somebody to believe WHAT SOMEBODY SAYS about something THAT HAPPENED that you can't know anything about otherwise. I guess this is back to the issue of trusting a witness. Jesus Christ seems to me to be eminently trustworthy and so do all his disciples, so it's going to come down not to whether you can believe a particular thing they say, but whether you believe what *they* tell you because of their trustworthiness. If you let a particular thing they say decide for you whether or not they are believable honest human beings, oh well.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 05:08 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 05:09 PM

And that of course comes immediately back to the problem of who you chose to be the supremely trustworthy person.Why Jesus and his disciples? Why not Joseph Smith Jr., L. Ron Hubbard or David Koresh?Edit: Insterted quote by Faith and changed name to Joseph Smith Jr.This message has been edited by Hrun, 06-03-2005 06:01 PM

As I understand it, none of them said anything that requires you to believe them about THINGS THAT HAPPENED. They are just doing the usual teaching about principles with nothing depending on actual events. Believing what people said about what HAPPENED is the Bible's emphasis.{Except for the Book of Mormon of course (which takes off from the Bible anyway) which purports to be a history -- except that as I recall it doesn't exhort anyone to believe anything that happened there either, it's all just humdrum events, nothing that pertains to salvation.{EDIT: Yes, who you find to be trustworthy is the point, but again you are not asked to believe anything UNTO SALVATION about EVENTS in the Koran. Checkmate said this quite emphatically as a matter of fact, said it's just instruction, on a thread about eyewitness reports a while back.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 07:16 PM

Well, perhaps it's a matter of opinion, but from my perspective, just granting for the sake of discussion the Adam and Eve story, that was at least 5000 years ago. We're still being held accountable for this today? And this seems a merciful and loving God to you?Playing devil's advocate might be doing yourself a favor in terms of aiding comprehension, but I don't think it helps the Christians much because your examples appear to me as self-evident examples of divine cruelty. Sorry I can't be more original, but my only response is the same one. This seems a merciful and loving God to you? I can't even find anything in my reacting this way that needs explaining. This 5000 year vendetta against the descendants of the arch criminals Adam and Eve has to stop! Sin and death, more contrivances of God. So I live a good, perhaps even an exemplary, life but don't accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, so I spend eternity in hell. Once again, your arguments seem to clearly provide an answer to this thread's question: God is cruel. All you're doing is justifying why it's his right to be cruel.--Percy

I don't think you're explaining this in a way that is helping anyone make the connection. You're being asked if you could temporarily persuade youself to believe something you don't believe. Of what possible difference can it make what you're being asked to believe? I see the words you've written, but why does it matter whether its an event versus a concept? I can tell it makes a difference to you, but you're not explaining why it makes that difference. To me it looks like just another one of Faith's beliefs that one has to accept on faith without rhyme or reason. They can't be explained, they just are.It is clear from reading your posts that you have a number of beliefs that seem as self-evident to you as "objects fall" and "water is wet" are to everyone else. But reading your posts about belief provides no insight into the basis for these beliefs. To me you seem to be asking the question, "Does this belief parallel Christian theology?" and if the answer is no then the belief doesn't qualify. But using Christianity as the yardstick for Christianity epitomizes circular reasoning.In other words, your rationale seems ad hoc, invented, made up, nonsensical. That's not to say that it really is, I'm just saying that presenting these axioms as if they were self-evident and needed no explanation or justification gives the appearance that you're just inventing reasons.--Percy

I've conceded that it may be impossible to CHOOSE to believe ANYTHING (or ANYBODY) whatever, in fact I started out saying that, but I would at least like the distinction recognized that I'm trying to make whether it makes a real difference or not. It can't be discussed until the distinction is at least acknowledged.Seems to me to be somewhat easier to believe SOMEBODY, to believe something you are told about *something that happened* that you have no way of verifying otherwise, by somebody who was there and who has a good reputation, than to believe abstract ideas about God.If not then not, but at least ACKNOWLEDGE THE DISTINCTION BEFORE YOU JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT'S ALL THE SAME. Thank you.

By disobeying God, Adam and Even brought sin and death to man. God did not bring sin and death to man, man did. We are not held accountable for it, it exists and we are born to it. Its a terrible calamity that Adam and Eve's disobedience has brought to the world. Fortunately, God is merciful and is totally willing to forgive us. Sounds great to me.If God had forced Adam and Eve to obey, that would be cruel.
If God had forced Adam and Eve to disobey, and then punished them for it, that would be cruel.
If Adam and Eve disobeyed God, but God still gave their descendants a chance to return. Not only that, but showed them the way too...that is merciful.God does not make us born in sin. We are born outside of paradise, we have to be born out of paradise, because mankind was evicted from paradise for his disobedience. However, they are allowed back in. Mercy.Club manager for nightclub sees that everyone is breaking a rule (I don't know, maybe they leave a drink on the pool table, or vomit on the carpet), so he kicks them all out. He then says, listen, if you accept my rules, you can come back in - otherwise, you stay outside of the club forever.Is that cruelty? Its not a vendetta though. To repeat, our ancestors were kicked out of paradise. It stands to reason that because they were outside of paradise, everyone born of them would also be born out of paradise. Since we are out of paradise, our eternal souls are a bit stuck really. However, if we want to get back into paradise we can do. Hurrah! Very loving and very merciful. Sin and death is disobedience to God, in the same way that cold is the absense of heat. You have the theology backwards though. If you lead a great life, then that's great. However, the life you lead is still outside of paradise, so outside of paradise you shall remain.Just to clarify my position here, sin and death = outside of paradise. Holiness and eternal life = inside of paradise.Perhaps I should repeat it: "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation".You seem to think that God has appointed us to wrath. You must be thinking of a different God to the Christian one, because the Christian God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation.There really isn't anymore that can be said. I understand your position:1. Punishing someone who has not done anything wrong is cruel
2. God punishes us for not doing anything wrong
3. God is cruel.Am I right? Perhaps I should repeat once more:
"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation". That is the Christian God, right there, as defined by Christianity.