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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 61 of 166 (269173)
12-14-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Silent H
12-14-2005 10:24 AM


Re: My changed mind
It is for some, that was my point. Unless you are planning on turning people who are bent on violence and murder into "brains in vats" and so incapable of such conduct... maybe paralyzing them... execution is about the only way.
somehow solitary isn't good enough for you? oh sure, hannibal got out, but that was a movie. i am personally of the opinion that the most torturous thing of all would be an extended life devoid of stimuli and companionship, not death. death is an escape, whether you believe in more or not.
Since it is a govt by us, our tastes will be taken into consideration.
i can't believe you. sorry, i live in florida where it is govt by jeb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 10:24 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 10:43 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 62 of 166 (269174)
12-14-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by bobbins
12-13-2005 11:27 PM


Re: Revenge
Ahem...
I did not assume diddly squat - I just accused use of wilful misuse of numbers.
As much as stats are never definitive of causation, your accusation was completely uncalled for. Lam even suggested why such graphs should not necessarily be taken on appearance.
Indeed, I do not buy deterrence arguments for capital punishment and would not readily appeal to that graph, despite the fact that it would support that position... and I am for the death penalty!
But lets discuss some dishonesty from your side. You initially created a list of what CP could be used for and yet conveniently leave off what I had been arguing over several posts within this thread. There is another reason.
I might also add that you then went on to rip into the US's practice of capital punishment. I'm sorry but this is coming from a guy in a nation that helped the US execute tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
Or does it matter less when the colored guy getting killed is outside one's borders?
I'm pretty sick of hearing EU commentary on what the US does regarding capital punishment. First of all it is a state by state issue, not a national issue. Second blood is on the hands of pretty much the entire EU, much more blood than the few executed within the US, and the people more innocent.
Its sheer hypocrisy. We kill but we don't execute our own civilians. Bully for you.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by bobbins, posted 12-13-2005 11:27 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by bobbins, posted 12-14-2005 8:11 PM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 63 of 166 (269180)
12-14-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 10:30 AM


Re: My changed mind
somehow solitary isn't good enough for you?
I wouldn't say "not good enough" since I am not asserting it should be done for punishment. It is not a practical response in my opinion.
If a person has killed and poses a real risk for killing again, then it makes no sense for a govt to store them away and devote resources to that permanent storage.
oh sure, hannibal got out, but that was a movie.
Uh... are you seriously claiming that prisoners do not escape, particularly violent criminals who then go on to kill some more? Yes hannibal was in a movie.
i am personally of the opinion that the most torturous thing of all would be an extended life devoid of stimuli and companionship, not death. death is an escape, whether you believe in more or not.
Heheheh... I already skewered the hypocrisy of this position. If indeed life imprisonment is WORSE than simply being killed, why would it make sense to argue we shouldn't execute people because some of them might be innocent?
If you really believe the statement above it seems that the more humane thing is to kill the convicted whether they are innocent of guilty. That would be the lesser punishment. Your position... not mine.
i can't believe you. sorry, i live in florida where it is govt by jeb.
Good point. I should have said its SUPPOSED to be a govt by us, and if it were then our tastes SHOULD be taken into consideration.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 10:30 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 10:58 AM Silent H has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 166 (269191)
12-14-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Silent H
12-14-2005 10:43 AM


Re: My changed mind
If a person has killed and poses a real risk for killing again, then it makes no sense for a govt to store them away and devote resources to that permanent storage.
well. i think it was lam who already stated that it's way more expensive to execute someone. maybe you should find me some figures. i would, but i'm completely lost as to where to look.
oops. pushed the go button before i meant to.
Uh... are you seriously claiming that prisoners do not escape, particularly violent criminals who then go on to kill some more?
no not really. but i think it is quite reasonable that flight is a manageable risk and should not play into the equation. particularly if we bother to design good prisons (at least as good as the schools we build. those are great prisons.).
Heheheh... I already skewered the hypocrisy of this position. If indeed life imprisonment is WORSE than simply being killed, why would it make sense to argue we shouldn't execute people because some of them might be innocent?
If you really believe the statement above it seems that the more humane thing is to kill the convicted whether they are innocent of guilty. That would be the lesser punishment. Your position... not mine.
let me be more specific. it has the positive features of both being drawn out for the truly guilty and reversable for the truly innocent. if you believe lam, it's cheaper. it's win win win.
i'd like to bring up the middle eastern tradition of removing the right hand from theives. it sure would prevent someone from stealing. or at least make it a lot harder. but it would also make it hard to eat or clean oneself or make an honest living or anything else (particularly with the traditional restrictions on using the left hand for such things.).
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-14-2005 11:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 10:43 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:02 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 67 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:16 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 65 of 166 (269193)
12-14-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 10:58 AM


Re: My changed mind
it's way more expensive to execute someone. maybe you should find me some figures. i would, but i'm completely lost as to where to look.
I'm not going to bother looking for economic figures as that is not my argument. I did not say it would be cheaper, specifically within our current system.
I said it did not make sense to store what amounts to rabid animals and devote resources to such storage. The cost involved with prosecuting a trial has nothing to do with that at all.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 10:58 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 11:09 AM Silent H has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 66 of 166 (269196)
12-14-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Silent H
12-14-2005 11:02 AM


Re: My changed mind
I said it did not make sense to store what amounts to rabid animals and devote resources to such storage.
i am still disturbed by the idea that these people cannot be fixed. i think anyone can be fixed. maybe it takes serious psychological counseling, maybe just learning a trade, maybe a lot of things. but i find it heartless to give up on them. but then i'm an idealist and i'm also quite aware that i'm a sociopath.
i mean, i wanna kill. i mean. kill. kiill kiiill kiiiiill kiiiiiiiiiill. sorry. arlo took me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:02 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:22 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 67 of 166 (269199)
12-14-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 10:58 AM


Re: My changed mind
it has the positive features of both being drawn out for the truly guilty and reversable for the truly innocent.
When plugged into the argument that innocent people WILL be convicted, then your statement above is worthless. It will be drawn out for both.
i'd like to bring up the middle eastern tradition of removing the right hand from theives.
I have no conceptual problem with corporal punishment for certain crimes. My guess is that would be a greater deterrent for some crimes, and on top of that would make it harder to engage in such activities. It is also much more merciful than taking TIME away from people. That can lead to destruction of one's entire life, which one cannot get back... ever.
A missing limb can be made up for though it will present a few limitations.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 10:58 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 68 of 166 (269201)
12-14-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 11:09 AM


Re: My changed mind
i think anyone can be fixed. maybe it takes serious psychological counseling, maybe just learning a trade, maybe a lot of things. but i find it heartless to give up on them.
You are an idealist and that's great. Unfortunately reality is that some people can't and even if they technically could, will not because they do not want to.
I'm not going to say there is "evil" in the world. I don't believe in that. But there really are violent people who will resort to that just for the fun of cruelty. They don't even want to change.
Instead of trying to change them to fit our concept of what the world should be, why don't we validate them and the reality of the world by dealing with them on their terms. I agree we shouldn't just give up on all who kill. There are very real reasons some will kill and it has nothing to do with a violent and dangerous internal drive. And some with an internal drive for that can indeed be seen as "fixable" and desire such a change.
But when you have someone that has the drive and no interest in trying to change, remove them.
You are not wrong for thinking it heartless if that is how you feel. Intriguingly I then seem to have less of a heart than those that seek to kill.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 11:09 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 12:10 PM Silent H has replied

wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 166 (269228)
12-14-2005 12:07 PM


A revert
Just to revert back to the actual Tookie Williams Case: What I mean is, that if Williams killed the 4 people for which he was convicted and there is conclusive, solid evidence (not witness testimony, not just circumstance, you get it) to pin him to those murders, then no matter what he's done, writing books, attempted to redeem himself for starting the Crips, yada yada, he still never admitted to committing the crimes. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (who I consider a class A idiot, and I'm no racist, sorry) likes to use the word "redemption" in describing Tookie Williams' case. Well, in my eyes, the first step to redemption is admitting what you did and apoligizing for it. If he did murder those people, then he never confessed. Why not confess to the murders when he's on the execution table? If he truly did kill those people, then that means that he doesn't care about the people whatsoever, and the whole "I'm sorry for starting the Crips" thing is one big farse. But again, that's IF he killed those people. If he killed them, then he was a psychopathic killer, and he died a psychopathic killer. If he didn't, he didn't deserve to die, because he repented for the crips. See what I mean? The Death Penalty should only be used on the worst criminals, and if he did what they say he did, Williams was one of those criminals.

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 12:13 PM wiseman45 has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 70 of 166 (269231)
12-14-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Silent H
12-14-2005 11:22 AM


Re: My changed mind
wold you say that stanley williams was one of those people? or how about the other people we've executed? oh sure dahmer, hitler, etc. but probably not most of the people executed. but who is to make that call? i don't think anyone is qualified. therefore, the call cannot be made.
but i'm sure others would argue qualification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:22 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 1:31 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 71 of 166 (269233)
12-14-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by wiseman45
12-14-2005 12:07 PM


Re: A revert
that's a whole lot of ifs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by wiseman45, posted 12-14-2005 12:07 PM wiseman45 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 166 (269242)
12-14-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by bobbins
12-13-2005 10:41 PM


Re: Revenge
As for justice, well reparation is a good start. In legalese 'Making good'.
What makes you think that government-mandated revenge isn't a form of reparation? And what about crimes that cannot be reparated? Murder, for instance? You might suggest that the victim's family be paid off, but what if the victim has no family? How do you reparate to a dead person?
As I said, we all have a desire for revenge because revenge is an objectively effective means of ensuring ethical behavior among a society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by bobbins, posted 12-13-2005 10:41 PM bobbins has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 73 of 166 (269247)
12-14-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Silent H
12-14-2005 10:08 AM


Re: My changed mind
That would make my claim that your position exhibited arbitrary application justified. That inherently removes your claim of prima fascie ridiculousness to at least one of my charges.
What, that I arbitrarily assign values of moral outrage to various moral outrages? Since I've been completely upfront about that being arbitrary, I fail to see how a criticism on that point is something I'm required to respond to. Especially when your entire argument rests on an arbitrary separation between "practical" and "theoretical."
You are arguing against practical certainty by appealing to theoretical certainty.
I'm trying to show you that, if "practical certainty" is less certain than "theoretical certainty", then it cannot be absolute; thus the concept of "absolute practical certainty" is an oxymoron. It's the same kind of nonsense as saying "I'm absolutely almost sure." It's a word game.
Since I can't grant you that "absolute practical certainty" is a meaningful term, I can't accept a model that makes use of it.
What you have just argued is that a person who wants to die might be able to create evidence, or have others create evidence to convict themself (its the plot of the movie ZigZag by the way). As I have already said such a move is itself complicity in a murder, they would be helping the real murderer get away, and so what the hell do I care in a practical sense if they then get nailed for that murder?
Asked and answered. There's no compelling state interest in helping a man commit suicide while at the same time letting a real murderer go free.
If you are trying to suggest that we cannot create rules of evidence, particularly with regard to overlapping nature and discovery, such as to preclude forgery by others to frame someone, then I think you are simply wrong.
Fine. I disagree; I think I'm right. Are you going to offer argumentation for your opinion? My opinion seems perfectly self-evident.
How on earth could that practically be considered a case where evidence could have been forged against that man?
Why couldn't it? Show me that this situation falls outside of your arbitrary boundary for "practical", and that your arbitrary boundary doesn't a priori reject any outcomes that have actually occured.
You will please show me what body of philosophers directly assert that no technique of empiricism can eliminate practical doubt. The best you will find is an assertion of no elimination of theoretical doubt.
Circular reasoning: any doubt you can't eliminate is conviniently dismissed as "theoretical."
Are you seriously going to suggest that there is some plausible practical doubt about what went on here?
Did I claim "plausible practical doubt"? Try not to put words in my mouth, please. I would draw the tentative conclusion that that what you say occured actually did so.
Where's the problem there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 10:08 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 2:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 74 of 166 (269254)
12-14-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 12:10 PM


Re: My changed mind
wold you say that stanley williams was one of those people?
I already answered this. His case was from what I understand wholly circumstantial, he claims he did not commit the crime, and even if true was part of a purely criminal act. He does not seem to fit a category that I would consider appropriate for execution.
oh sure dahmer, hitler, etc. but probably not most of the people executed.
Dahmer was murdered and Hitler killed himself. Both events I might note happen to innocent people unjustly imprisoned (not that Hitler even reached that point).
If there are innocent people being executed, when that is the most carefully scutinized process of all types of legal cases there are, how many innocents are languishing in jail under the more oppressive conditions that you yourself outlined?
How many end up dying in prison?
i don't think anyone is qualified. therefore, the call cannot be made.
You just named two where we could make a call. There are others. I was not arguing that all currently on death row should be executed. I argued that executions can be properly applied.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 12:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 3:04 PM Silent H has replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4445 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 75 of 166 (269255)
12-14-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
12-13-2005 8:34 AM


Give us some learning here....
"Both the US and the Netherlands are going through the worst periods in their histories right now. Neither is in a position to be pointing fingers at each other in such a collective manner."
Enlighten us all, what exactly is happening in the US now that is causing the "Worst periods in their history?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 12-13-2005 8:34 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 2:27 PM 8upwidit2 has not replied

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