Re-enactments of the Noah's Ark voyage?

That's a ludicrous suggestion. Water just doesn't work like that. There's no amount of force or heat that could cause that. The oceans wouldn't be pressed back, they're be stirred up. More force would just make it work.Could you maybe stop just making things up? Or at least stop before you make up something stupid?

Water might not work that way, but vast amounts of water erupting from beneath the earth, when these compressed waters came out they exploded into steam, its like the force of an hot water heater exploding on a bigger scale, so it probably would push the oceans back, but whatever, its time to agree to disagree, so I can take a break.
P.S. There is a football game today![This message has been edited by whatever, 02-01-2004]

Steam is nearly always hot, Whatever. Is gopher wood a very, very good insulator? Extremely good?I didn't think so.

With no living thing to witness, all life having been parboiled.Oh, wait, life does exist!So your fantasy is wrong.[This message has been edited by JonF, 02-01-2004]

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The side door closing flush will not affect the fluid dynamics of water flow, because the sea anchors would continually keep the ark with the waves, cutting the waves, the waves wouldn't be bashing the sides of the ark, God told Noah to build an ark, the door need not be a big door, simply big enough for immature creatures to enter, he could of ripped the door open if the creatures got too big, during the flood, to beable to exit, etc...

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You really know nothing about boats do you? A door of any size in the side of a wooden vessel is going to play havoc with the structural stability. Wooden ships flex under wave action and a ship this size is going to flex a lot. It will leak like a sieve, especially around the door. At least you won’t have any trouble getting water for your moon pool. It will fill very quickly from leakage, but then so will the rest of the ark.

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One of the reasons for a moon pool is to take up some of the flex stresses, and the moon pool level would change as the ark went cut through the waves, with the windows closed and the cracks in the windows, it would of allowed forced air ventilation, we can have a little wooden roof cover finished above the windows, to prevent the rain from coming in

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Your moon pool would very quickly become a cesspool. Have you forgotten that you have thousands of animals aboard? How will you prevent their urine from seeping down to the moon pool? You also can’t really ventilate a three-story structure sealed with pitch from some windows on the top and if you force any air in during the 40 days and night of torrential rain you are going to fill the ark with water. The whole ark story requires absurdity piled on absurdity.

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The fishes probably survived quite well in the stratified layers of freshwater over the continents and the saltier stratified waters layers over the oceans,

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Have you forgotten that this magic flood needs to sort and deposit thousands of feet of sediments in layers all over the world? How is that consistent with maintaining stratification?

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P.S. Why would not the sediments settle quickly, the minerals in the Ocean would be clearing the waters, preventing silt from sticking to the corals (by satisfying the electric charges), allowing the reefs more nutrients, and building up the reefs quickly, etc...

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Did you ever hear of Stokes’ law? Fine sediments can take considerable time to settle. But the real problem is that there are delicate coral reefs buried by sediments that supposedly flood deposits.
Consider the Silurian reefs that surround massive salt deposits in Michigan.
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/evaporite.htmlThere are estimated to be 71 trillion tons of salt is these deposits.
Site Not Configured | 404 Not FoundHow did the coral reefs survive the flood intact to be buried and how did all this salt get deposited during a global flood? To deposit this much salt you must evaporate about 10^18 kg of seawater. How does that happen during a global flood? Evaporating this much water takes about 4x10^24 of heat. There are no tectonic centers in the area to provide the heat and even if there were the tectonic activity would have destroyed the delicate Silurian Reef system. Of course Michigan has only a small fraction of the salt that was supposedly deposited during the global flood.

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The fountains were erupting out with such force it pressed back the oceans, no expresso machine, just steam and sediments blasting upward, then the steam cooling and returning as rain, snow, etc...

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So the steam jets push back the oceans and then go into the air. This is absurd but even so it will cook the earth to death many times over. Before this steam can fall as rain it must give up its latent heat. Steam coming from tectonic activity will probably have a temperature of about 1000 C. According to my steam tables this steam will have a heat content of over 4,000 J/gram. If you want to get even 1000 meters of global rain from these fountains (hardly enough to cover all the high mountains) you will need about 5 x 10^23 grams of steam with a heat content of 2 x 10^27 J. The mass of the atmosphere is about 5 x 10^21 grams and atmospheric gases have a heat capacity of approximately 1 Joule per gram-per degree. Thus it will take about 5 x 10^23 J to heat the atmosphere to 100 C. Your fountains of the deep are releasing 4000 times that amount into the atmosphere just to give you 1 km of global rain, which BTW is 41 inches per hour for 40 days and 40 nights. Even to get a measly hundred meters of global rain you release 400 times the amount of heat required to heat the atmosphere by 100 C. Gopher wood not only needed to be a good insulator, Noah need the world’s best air conditioner on board to survive in an atmosphere of high pressure steam.Randy

Ah, but the key to a moon pool is that it's open to the ocean at the bottom.There's nothing that improves the stability of a vessel more than a large hole in the bottom of the hull. Floating, now, that's another story.

So a door in the side, a hole in the bottom and a big window to let in the 40 days and nights of intense global rain. The question is whether this boat would break up before it sank and would it sink before or after it was parboiled by the heat from the fountains of the deep. It any case it would save the poor animals the misery of starving to death while on the trip or after they came off the ark into a flood devastated landscape so I guess that is some good.Randy

Just a test.AM

Randy, You forget Noah had Iron and Brass to strenthen the ark, bolts, nails, ribs, hinges, valves, and to compartmentalize the ark, the ark was sealed inside and out, this would of strengthed the boat, as well as preserving the ark from decay, with water ballast this would lower the stress problems, also lowering the ark in the wave base, and the small door entrance to the ark could of been built between supporting ribs and struts, before bolting the door securely shut Noah would of tared to seal the door, so it wouldn't of leaked, the moon pool wouldn't of become a cesspool simply because the waves would of continually be diluting the wastes as they flowed into the pool(part of the drag, vortex action in the moon pool, because of the water flowing around the arks hull), the waves pulsating action, would of increased the air pressure within the ark, causing the moon pool level to press down, accelerating the ventilation, with a roof over the windows, the length of the ark, only air would be drawn back into the ark, through the vent slats under the roof in the windows, the moon pool would be like a giant bellows, keeping the atmosphere fresh, and driving the moon pool lower so the wastes would be diluted continually, etc...if water ballast is such a good idea for sail boats, if the bottom of the boat had a second moonpool, so as a big boat hit waves, if it would equalize inner and outer lower hull pressures, kind of complementing the moon pool, these wave energies could also be pressing waters from the ballasts to slowly fill an upper reservoir for watering the animals, flushing wastes to the moon pool, etc...Stokes law would be a non factor, because of the iron in the basalt sediments, and the iron, calcium, and aluminum ions in the oceans waters, the waves would mix the sediment and then they would settle quickly through the upper warmer salty stratification layers, but agree that stokes law might slow its decent as the waters cooled, and interestingly stokes law might actually support liquefication, explaining how the fossils floated within the dispersed sediments, the massive salt deposits buried by sediments came into being when God created the water canopy that covered the earth (pre-flood), if it never rained preflood, the waters evaporated leaving incredible amounts of salt behind, likes expressed beneath the sediments of the Mediterranean Sea, but the flood explains the sediments that covered these salt deposits, and the Salt domes, etc...the coral reefs were simply covered as the sediments settled slowly by Stokes law & liquefication, gently burying your coral reefs beneath the sediments. The steam erupting out of the fountains of the deep would of rolled back the atmosphere much like Mt. St. Helens, so the steam would of mushroomed out above the atmosphere so the atmosphere being rolled back (displaced) wouldn't of over heated, with the rains raining down as the steam cools it would slip under the accelerating steam rising upwards 100's possibly 1000's of miles above the atmosphere, causing these fine sediments in the upper atmosphere to continually to rain upon the entire earth, during the flood adding additional 1000's of feet of sediments over the entire earth, I'm not sure how much sediments existed before the flood, to how many feet would of been deposited by the flood, but agree the massive salt deposits were formed pre-flood, etc...P.S. Don't forget to watch the Super Bowl, who really cares about how to build an ark 520 feet, that would float, think we would need to have engineers do a lot of simulations, on them super computers to agree on a blueprint, size of the anchor stones, amount of water ballast needed, size of the moon pools, ventilation vents, water reservoir, whats interesting is you could of started out with very few creatures given how quickly new species of like kinds micro-evolve, etc...[This message has been edited by whatever, 02-01-2004]

You're cobbling on so many solutions to problems with your theory that it begins to resemble some sort of Heath Robinson device. Maybe you should go back to the drawing board and start again. Have you noticed that the fatal flaw nearly every single time is this idea of the "fountains of the deep"? What happens to all or most of the objections if you leave that out?I can happily accept that there was some sort of flood affecting the people from whom the writer of the Flood saga was descended, but Ican't accept that it was global, nor can I accept the "fountains of the deep". Anyway, it's too reminiscent of the "Secret Policeman's Ball" and the "Mountains of the Earth". Apologies to anyone who doesn't get this reference.Try this for size. Noah notices that it hasn't stopped raining for a while and he's getting soggy and worried - the river's rising, the lake's rising and getting closer to his flocks. He has a pray to God and either by divine inspiration or good old-fashioned commonsense, he realises that if he is on a boat, he will float in a flood and not drown. So he gets to work and, realising that he runs the risk of floating away from his food (his flocks), he takes some of the animals on board. Off he floats with his menagerie, serenely bobbing on the waves, plenty to eat, plenty to drink (if the floodwaters become salty because of seawater contamination he can always collect some rainwater in containers, there isn't exactly a shortage). Some time and alot of manure later, he runs aground and they all get off. Since the flooding is relatively localised, the floodwaters recede speedily, especially if you start off on top of a mountain, so various plants etc haven't been totally drowned and there's food for the grazing animals.As hypothoses go, this seems a damn sight more probable than the "fountains of the deep" and we don't have to worry about moonpools (which I don't think get a mention in any Bible I've read), doors, little roofs, ventilation, parboiled fish or even parboiled Noah!

Nope. Bronze age. Nope. None of your gibberish affects the fact that fine sediment settles slowly. And killed them all. Of course, they would have been dead already from being in water that's too deep. No matter what you say, the heat has to go somewhere. Noah's flesh would have been flayed from his bones, and the only life that could possibly have survived would have been a few bacteria. What's really interesting is that the stuff you make up or copy from other creationsists is always diametrically opposed to the truth. Given how quickly new species of like kinds, whatever the heck "kinds" are, micro-evolve then life on Earth would be nowhere near as varied as it is now if your scenario were true.

The bible says that in Noah's day they could make things out of iron and brass!!!kjv Gen 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain [was] Naamah.While in fresh water, these particles--kept in suspension by their molecular motion--carry negative charges and tend to repulse one another. In the estuary, however, where the fresh water meets and mingles with ionically charged salt water, negative charges are neutralized, and the particles become attractive. As they collide, they tend to coalesce or stick together, forming larger aggregates or clumps of sediments called flocs, which then settle out of the destabilized suspension.Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network SolutionsIt appears corals are both asexual and sexual modes for reproduction, some bud and float, others reproduce by fragmentation, the flood would of been a good medium for spreading these various ways to reseed the corals across the face of the earth, etc...Page Not FoundThe fish apparently survived fine by swimming out the flood, given the diverse ocean life, it might even be that the few species on the continents microevolved from the ocean fishes that survived the flood, though some likely survived in stratified layers, but then again, 2 percent of the ocean and fresh water fishes can adapt in the estuaries over time, etc...http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99295.htmGiven heat rises, the heat could of primarily dispersed in the upper atmosphere, not toasting the ark, with the steam gently pressing the oceans back, no giant waves to worry about either, just a lot of rain, in fact it wasn't until after the flood that God allowed the winds to blow, kjv genesis 8:1.[This message has been edited by whatever, 02-01-2004]

Another thing the Bible is wrong about. (Did you know that, for most of human history, technology advanced so slowly that nobody even concieved that there was advancement? The Bible writers would have assumed that the ancients would have had iron because it was inconcievable to them that things were getting better, not worse.) If Noah had iron where is all the Noaic iron technology? And why didn't his decendants know how to use it? The coral beds we observe today are older than 6000 years. There's no possibility of "reseeding". Those corals would have had to remain in situ, unchanged, to appear as old as they do today.Even if they reseeded, your flood kills all coral, so all you're reseeding is dead coral. Hardly effective. Gently? You said before that the steam was so forceful that it blew the oceans back. If the steam is gentle then you're back to where we started - steam-wanding the oceans. You're going to get a froth like a cappuchino. Which is it? You can't seem to make up your mind on this.I'd suggest that you stick to one position and try to argue it. What you're going - making up explanations as you go that often contradict other things you've made-up - doesn't help Creationism. (You're maybe the worst creationist I've ever debated with. Except for maybe Wise.)[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-01-2004]

crashfrog, The steam would of pressed upward, displacing the ocean and the atmosphere, why would not the oceans not be pressed back, gently, because the steam would be pressing upward, heat rises, etc...I'm sure your going to disagree, so I'm going to agree to disagree, this is my last post, its just too addicting, etc...

You get to do that when there is a difference of opinion. In this case it is facts and logic.But, who cares, good ridence.

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Common sense isn't