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Author | Topic: No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Yaro writes: So, we have this gap, "how did life get here?". Instead of donning your lab coat and thinking cap and figuring it out, you say "Ill just belive what this dusty 'ol book says." By automatically donning your lab coat your are making the presumption that a naturalistic origin of life must exist. You are pre-disposed to thinking that way and are thus likely to arrive at the basis of some naturalistic theory or other. All that has been done is to wind-up the same old naturalistic clockwork toy and set it further back down the same old track. It will arrive at the same destination by another means.
you say "Ill just belive what this dusty 'ol book says." An patent oversimplification which only serves to underline your prior commitment to restricting the search to science. Scientism in other words... The bible is neither dusty (it gets read too much for dust to gather), nor old (something that is timeless doesn't age) "Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6523 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
By automatically donning your lab coat your are making the presumption that a naturalistic origin of life must exist. You are pre-disposed to thinking that way and are thus likely to arrive at the basis of some naturalistic theory or other. All that has been done is to wind-up the same old naturalistic clockwork toy and set it further back down the same old track. It will arrive at the same destination by another means. Ok then... how do we go about looking for a supernatural means then?
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6523 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
iano, that was a serious question. Again:
How do we go about looking for a supernatural means then?
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Yaro writes: How do we go about looking for a supernatural means then? There is most certainly the potential for a logical, rational approach to this question. But it will have to wait. It's Friday, it's just past 6. My dinner is due on the table at 8 and the interim will be spent over a couple of pints of Guinness Good weekend EvC-ers (ps: Crashfrog where are you? This is a development of that wunder-question you once posed)
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Tusko Member (Idle past 128 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
Sorry! I thought it might annoy faith to be talking about the universe's rather than life's origins, so I gave it the chop.
Glad you liked it though!
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6523 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Mmmmm...Guinness
Your lucky! I once had the pleasure of having it on tap, and it was some of the nicest stuff I ever tasted. I wonder what it's like over there in the motherland? I'd imagine it's more potent. Anyway, enjoy your friday, hope to discuss the issue further when your able to get back to it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Wasn't it your implication that because you or any of us, might not be able to think of other natural options for how life could have arisen, that it somehow follows that there must be a supernatural cause? No. If there ARE none, yes, but not being able to think of any though there are some, no.
Put another way, are you saying that, by definition, anything about the natural world that we do not currently understand, or may never understand, must have a supernatural cause? Not at all. I believe what I believe from the Bible. God created everything at one point in time, or over a period of seven days. After it was created I have no reason to think He did any more creating. He now sustains what He created but doesn't add anything more to it. Whatever we don't understand about the natural world is for science to study. Science is completely compatible with God as the Bible reveals Him (in fact wouldn't have developed without belief in Him) except on those points where it denies the Bible, the Creation and the Flood.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6523 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
....
Not at all. I believe what I believe from the Bible. God created everything at one point in time, or over a period of seven days. After it was created I have no reason to think He did any more creating. He now sustains what He created but doesn't add anything more to it. Whatever we don't understand about the natural world is for science to study. Science is completely compatible with God as the Bible reveals Him (in fact wouldn't have developed without belief in Him) except on those points where it denies the Bible, the Creation and the Flood. So basically... science should have no other choice but to coroborate your bible? We don't see that. So what difference does it make weather or not we abolish evolution/abiogenesis? Your case for the bibles veracity is not helped one iota.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not at all. I believe what I believe from the Bible. God created everything at one point in time, or over a period of seven days. Well, there is ample evidence that is false, so that option may be safely disregarded under any scenario. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2520 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I can't think of any. Can you? 1) Naturalistic - Abiogenisis2) Panspermia 3) Creation by God 4) Creation by a divine entity other than God (Maybe the Angels created life. Maybe the Devil. We have no reason to believe otherwise) 5) Life has always existed everywhere in the universe. 6) Gaia - Earth, and everything alive on it, is part of one large organism. 7) Life does not exist at all - we are mistakingly attributing ourselves with "life" when in fact we are not alive 8) Creation by super intelligent aliens 9) Creation by future Humans sending life back through time (yes, it's a paradox, but still more reasonable than the spagetti monster theory) That list took about 2 minutes, and frankly isn't all that imaginative or complete. Why, even if we rule out number 1, should we assume that number 3 is correct. Do we have ANY evidence in support of number 3? How do we answer the fact that there is an equal amount of evidence supporting number 9 as there is supporting number 3?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes:
and where it says the earth is round, and where it says the earth orbits the sun, and where it say the brain is the centre of thought, not the heart, and where it says there are no windows in the sky holding out water. except on those points where it denies the Bible, the Creation and the Flood. yeah... dodgy stuff that science when it disagrees with the bible. edit: Sorry nuggin... replied to wrong message.. again... This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-07-2005 07:38 PM
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bkelly Inactive Member |
jar writes: Life has always existed. In the beginning there was life. I think that is a preposterous concept. Everything had a begining. If there is a god, he had to have to come from somewhere. To be honest, when we think back far enough we must question as to how anything came to exist. This is indeed a paradox, but it does not mean life always existed. So, why do you think that?
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
All the evidence seems to point towards life always existing.
No matter where we look we find signs of life. When we look at the geological layers we find life. When we look around we find life. When we look in the depths we find life. When we look at the Black or White Smokers existing under unbelievable pressures away from all sunlight, we find life. When we look in boiling hot springs, we find life. When we look under the ice in the Arctic, we find life. When we look under the ice in the AntArctic, we find life. When we look in the deserts, the seas, the mountains, the rims of volcanos, the plains, the valleys, the shores, we find life. Life is everywhere. Where is the evidence that it had a beginning? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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bkelly Inactive Member |
Faith writes: God created everything at one point in time, or over a period of seven days. Genisis,26 writes: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likness, and let .... 1. We are made in god's image. We look like him, he looks like us. The words clear, the words are simple, the words leave no doubt. God has eyes, nose, mouth, penis, anus, etc, etc. He breathes air, speaks in air, hears in air, etc. So where is god? He has the same body as us. Why does he have all these attributes that we need but a god would not? 2. "... in OUR image..." There was more than one god. Again, plain, simple, undeniaible, inarguable. He said it. He meant it. So where are these other gods? What have they done? What happened to them? Did your god kill these other gods?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
You've listed only places on earth. so you can at best only logically deduce from that that life has existed as long as the earth has existed. That's not "always"
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