Immigration issues

I would like to see what the average EvC member feels about the current immigration issue. There are some very diverse beliefs concerning the immigration issue. Some Americans believe that national diversity is one of our great strengths and that the mantra, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free is more than valid, but that embodies the spirit of American ideal. However, during the last few decades, there has been a serious influx of immigration into the United States. The problem they feel with this is that, for one thing, they come here illegally and do not respect the course of action to make themselves legitimate citizens. As well, they feel that the nation cannot sustain itself with a large amount of undocumented people streaming across the borders and taking employment away from its own citizens. They feel that it won't be long before the nation erodes if something isn't done soon.Certain groups have taken it upon themselves to serve as watchdogs who unofficially augment the US Border Patrol. There is some controversy surrounding these groups, such as the liability concerns associated with vigilante justice. However, one such group, the Minutemen, claim that they have no hands on approach and they simply observe and inform the Border Patrol of the activities occurring in that area.There is another group who thinks that groups like Minutemen are really just closet racists who don't like hispanics. They feel that there shouldn't even be a border to begin with and call for the immediate removal of the Border Patrol. They feel as though people should be able to mingle the way they see fit and to work where ever they please.I would like to know what the audience feels about this case. Do you think groups like the Minutemen have legitimate concerns, or do you feel that any kind of laws barring immigration should be expunged from record?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.Sorry NJ, the only place for this one to go is Coffee House the way the board is structured. SocIssues in Cre/Evo is only for topics related to the primary debate. It's a good OP, hope it gets good play.Edited by AdminQuetzal, : No reason given.

we have always thought that the newest group of americans was going to erode our society. italians and irish were once a plague on our society. now they are having their turn to hate the new guys who are taking their jobs. i think the solution to the "immigration crisis" is to figure out why they want to come here. this is obvious enough. life is good here and shitty where they come from. so, i propose that if we really want to slow immigration, that we change our foreign policy to aid in the betterment of the emmigrating nations.

No apologies necessary. I see alot of Admins place any and all social issues in the SocIssues in Creo/Evo room, when in many cases it doesn't belong there. Coffee House the most appropriate thread.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I think the whole idea is absolutely silly. Those proposing an open border neglect to consider the issue of terrorism and illegal smuggling, while those proposing tightening the borders and building a wall are simply stupid.The funny thing about it is that the current Administration has been pulling the typical Conman, Palm the Pea tactic by pushing "The Wall".The question really comes down to one underlying issue.How do you tell if someone is a citizen?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Good point. When Italians and the Irish came here in droves there was a lot of flak taken over that. There were some social and economic problems associated with it during that time, but we seemed to have survived it and even benefited from it as a nation. Good post, Brenna. To a large extent I agree with you. In my opinion, I understand that people want to come here seeking a better way of life for their family. Who can argue against that? You can't help but to feel sympathetic to their plight. At the same time, I have very strong views on what is the best way to come here. And the reason that is because if we don't go through the legal process to naturalize people, the great land of opportunity they came here to capitalise on with slowly degrade in to that second or third world they fled from. Which will be bad for everyone.I also have a problem with people demonizing the nation for its stance on protecting the border, which by way of comparison, is more lax than other countries. I mean, every country on earth seeks to protect its borders for its own security. And yet it seems that the US is the only nation being berated over that. Why this singling out?In summary, I'm all for immigration, but I am opposed to illegal immigration.Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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that we change our foreign policy to aid in the betterment of the emmigrating nations.

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How would we go about doing that? Repeal ag subsidies?

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In summary, I'm all for immigration, but I am opposed to illegal immigration.

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I agree with you. We need immigration to sustain our aging population. It would be preferable that this immigration is done in an orderly fashion, with background checks, so we can avoid criminal elements and preferably pick and choose the applicants least likely to end up on the welfare doles.America does take a lot of flack for being too restrictive in granting citizenship, but we have a fairly liberal policy compared to other first-world nations like Japan (forget about it) Australia (you must be less than 45 and have demonstrable job skills; although there are other ways in if you happen to be rich) and the Netherlands (must speak Dutch). I don't think these last two are unreasonable by the way, but imagine the outcry if the United States were to do this.Australian Visa Information | Acacia | Immigration Australia http://www.justlanded.com/english/netherlands/...Edited by gene90, : added linksEdited by Adminnemooseus, : Shortened display form of a URL.

Before I say anything, I want to make it absolutely clear that I don't have much of an opinion on the immigration issue, at least not yet anyway.I have been, however, listening to arguments from both sides and trying to analyze their strengths and weaknesses. The best argument I have heard against illegal immigration is one of fairness. There are those who wait in line for years to get into this country legally. The argument is that why should hispanics get special treatment simply because they live next door to us?For those that think we should grant at least legal status to illegal immigrants, what do you think of the argument I just pointed out? I just want to hear an opinion that I haven't thought of or heard.

Oh you bet the American middle class needs competition from other countries: open the doors freely to educated, English-speaking immigrants from India, Korea, Singapore, and Pakistan and watch a new white welfare class develop.The "outcry if the United States were to do this" would come from employers who don't need language fluency or skilled workers: they need cheap field, unskilled, and semi-skilled labor for short wages.Most of those employers are conservative Republicans--that's why the one measure likely to stem illegal immigration (aggressive penalties on knowing employers of illegal immigrants) never gets anywhere in Congress.Crime drops in cities with high numbers of illegal immigrants; they pay FICA and other taxes without any likelihood of gaining benefits.The "dole" is not something they are ever likely to see.

Not too many people would disagree with that sentiment in the abstract. Unfortunately real life isn't as neat as all that. Do you have any idea how long legal immigration takes? I'll pause a moment to let you consider that question.As far at the Minutemen go, I have a few thoughts on them. The name seems chosen to evoke a particular emotional response. Whenever I see something like that, a flag goes up. Obviously they are trying to present a particular image.Are they racist? I have no idea. I've never spoken to any of them. Given the prevalence of racism in this country, I'd be amazed if none of them were. However, I'm simply not willing to paint them all with that brush without actual evidence. It seems likely that at least some of them genuinely believe they are protecting the country from a perceived threat.I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them like to play soldier, too.I do think that there's little difference between anti-immigration sentiment that's flourishing today and what we have seen several times in the nation's past.Now, back to the question I posed before. Hope you've had enough time to think about it. Legal immigration can take from 3 years to 20 or more in some cases. Back in the late 1980s when I took an immigration law class, I seem to recall that the government wasn't even accepting certain types of visa applications from Mexico. If that's still the case, then that means that the vast majority of people in Mexico cannot even apply for legal immigration to the U.S.It's always easy to criticize someone for breaking the law. For a closet bigot, it's a way to rationalize prejudice and feel good about one's self. Please do not assume that I am suggesting that you are a bigot, nem, I am not. I'm simply pointing out that falling back on the illegal aspect of the immigration is an easy out for those who are looking for one if they don't know all the facts.I do think that border security is a problem. With so many people coming across the border every day, it's much easier for someone with evil on his mind to get into the country undetected.Our southern border is like a leaky dam. It seems to me that there are two ways to fix the problem. One would be to try to plug the holes. But it's a long, long border, and that option just doesn't seem feasible to me. The other is to take the pressure off. One way to do that is, as brenna suggested, make things at home less hopeless. The other way, as I see it, is to open the gates and let more of the people in legally. I really believe that most of the people who come here want to do it legally, they just have few, if any, options to do so.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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Do you have any idea how long legal immigration takes? I'll pause a moment to let you consider that question.

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Years, that much is true. But how is it relevant? Is there a "right" to immigrate, or is it a privilege?

Your position is a reasonable one. In actuality, it is much, much more difficult to legally immigrate here from Mexico. As far as I've been able to determine, we seem to have an insane policy that limits the number of people that can come here per country, and that limit is the same for all countries. Thus, because there are many, many more people that want to come here from Mexico than there are from say Liechtenstein, it's much more difficult for Mexicans to get in legally. So as it turns out, Mexicans don't get special treatment, they have it worse off than most other people.I do agree that whatever we do, we need to be cognizant of those who are trying to jump through all the proper hoops and make sure that they don't get screwed.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

The relevance goes to the "high moral ground" argument that a lot of people seem to begin and end their position with. When all they have to say is, "Let them immigrate legally," they end up sounding an awful lot like Marie Antoinette.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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Oh you bet the American middle class needs competition from other countries: open the doors freely to educated, English-speaking immigrants from India, Korea, Singapore, and Pakistan and watch a new white welfare class develop.

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The "outcry if the United States were to do this" would come from employers who don't need language fluency or skilled workers: they need cheap field, unskilled, and semi-skilled labor for short wages.

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Most of those employers are conservative Republicans--that's why the one measure likely to stem illegal immigration (aggressive penalties on knowing employers of illegal immigrants) never gets anywhere in Congress.

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Crime drops in cities with high numbers of illegal immigrants; they pay FICA and other taxes without any likelihood of gaining benefits.

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The "dole" is not something they are ever likely to see.

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I see something in your text about an "outcry", omnivorous, but otherwise nothing vaguely similar to the text of my post.If evil, far-right, reactionary countries like Australia and the Netherlands can be selective in who they admit, why can't the United States?You're right though about how and why the GOP opposes meaningful reform. Cheap labor is good for business and probably a hedge against infaltion. IOW, even unskilled workers can be useful to the economy.The point though, is why immigration is such a touchy-feely subject in the US when it isn't elsewhere. Probably there is some sentiment of economic protectionism in other countries, but the lack of an outcry is surprising and hints of double standards. In this country, we have street demonstrations when somebody suggests building a fence. Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.