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Author Topic:   Did Jesus betray Judas?
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 1 of 64 (563073)
06-03-2010 7:00 AM


Superficially, the story of Jesus suffering on the cross to save us from our sins sounds heroic. Anyone suffering or dying for others is normally and rightly praised. However, in this case, the meaning of the story appears to unravel under the slightest analysis.
If Judas had not betrayed Jesus, or if Jesus had been tried but let off, would Jesus have still been able to save us from our sins? Would he have had to commit some kind of horribly painful suicide? Or would a simple declaration — you are all saved have done the trick? Was it absolutely necessary for people to kill him in order for him to forgive them?
Was saving us from our sins some kind of serendipitous outcome of Jesus’ execution, something that wasn’t on his original agenda? "Hey, you've nailed me to a tree, but guess, what! Now that you've done this, by pure chance there is some mechanism (don't ask for the details) that allows me to save all of you for your sins! How about that!"
Or was his execution always a necessary part of a grand plan to save us? Was it necessary for Jesus to betray Judas by befriending him to ensure that Judas was then in a position to betray Jesus in return, so that Jesus would get arrested, you know, against his will? (I hope you follow the plot.)
As I think I’ve argued before, Judas is the real hero who suffered for us. Jesus said, It would have been better for him if had not been born, implying Judas is suffering in eternity for his endeavours that ensured the rest of us were saved. All Jesus had was a bad weekend.
What if Jesus had died in some kind of accident before he was put on the cross? (Say, while he was dragging his cross through the streets he’d been squashed under a big sack of flour.) Would that have really screwed things up, or would it have saved us just as effectively as an execution on a cross?
Could we, today, have had a Christianity split between the Plain and Self-Raising factions?
Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : Clarity!

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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 64 (563196)
06-03-2010 7:56 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Did Jesus betray Judas? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
hotjer
Member (Idle past 4545 days)
Posts: 113
From: Denmark
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 3 of 64 (563204)
06-03-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-03-2010 7:00 AM


Jesus was a good salesman according to the story
In any case; I have a hard time to believe it was not intentionally what Judas did to Jesus (conspiracy), in that meaning I think he knew what would happen. The whole story seems like a setup, a mind trick on the crowd, when Jesus point out Judas as the betrayer and thereafter sacrifice himself.
For some reason I always think of the explanation of why Harald Bltand (Bluetooth) (the Danish King that converted the Danish people from Asatru to Christianity); The priest Poppo "proved" the truth of Christianity by wearing ordeal; he stuck his hand into an iron glove, which was heated, so it was glowing, without the hand was damaged. That evidence yielded Harald and he was baptized.
This is hardly truth and he probably converted to Christianity because of its influence across Europe, which made it a secure decision for the country to adopt Christianity. In other words; fabricated tale.
The same goes for the story of Jesus and Judas, probably.

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 4 of 64 (563211)
06-03-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by hotjer
06-03-2010 8:41 PM


Interesting.....
Chimp,
Very interesting post to say the least.
A Christian accepts events in life as free will coupled with the sovereignty of God.
The betrayal of Christ was predicted almost to a "t" in the OT. Judas wasn't named but the price was. One could question, did Judas know his Scripture well enough to heroically fill this role or did events happen so fast that week that it completely slipped his mind and he used his own free will to fulfill the prophecy?????
You ask: was his execution necessary to save mankind? Yes, it was. It was part of the covenant in the OT, fulfilled in the NT. The second part, did he "need" Judas to fulfill this role. That's a toughy...yes and no, maybe? lol. Again, most, if not all, of the events surrounding his crucifixion were predicted, in the OT. One would have to say that the role would have been filled by somebody, if not Judas, in God's sovereign plan.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 64 (563226)
06-04-2010 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
06-03-2010 10:04 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Flyer75 writes:
The betrayal of Christ was predicted almost to a "t" in the OT. Judas wasn't named but the price was. One could question, did Judas know his Scripture well enough to heroically fill this role or did events happen so fast that week that it completely slipped his mind and he used his own free will to fulfill the prophecy?????
the fact was that none of the other apostles had any idea that Jesus was going to be killed so why would Judas?
When men tried to arrest Jesus on the night of his trial, his apostles tried to fight them off, so they certainly werent under any impression that this was meant to happen.

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 6 of 64 (563231)
06-04-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
06-04-2010 12:34 AM


Re: Interesting.....
If I was a movie producer and someone came up to me with that manuscript, Id politely but emphatically tell no, no again and hell no. I mean there are loads of "unbelievable" stories but this whole saving-by-crucifiction is just sad and pathetic and also ill-conceived.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 64 (563236)
06-04-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-03-2010 7:00 AM


To play the apologist's advocate, I can see how an omniscient god could set this sort of thing up without violating Judas's free will or causing something similar to entrapment.
Lets assume for the moment that the Christian god judges people based on their thoughts rather than their actions. (I know this is contradicted some places in the Bible, and causes big problems for gratuitous suffering, but bear with me.) Someone with the "heart" of a murderer would be judged the same whether or not they are in a position to actually commit such a sin.
God actually does need to set things up so that Jesus will get betrayed, but arranging for Judas to be in such a position isn't really going to affect Judas's eventual judgment. It is like if you wanted to be mugged and decided to hang out in a really bad part of town; you are not making the people there any more muggers than they already were. In this same way, Judas isn't made any more a murderer by actually being able to commit the act.
You could even argue that being put in that position was a blessing for Judas. According to Acts 1:18 he basically pops (presumably a smiting from God), but Matthew 27:3-6 says that he repented, made an offering at the temple, and hanged himself. Assuming repenting of your sins meant anything at that point, Judas might have been given the opportunity to repent for his thought-crimes and allowed entrance to heaven, rather than likely never asking forgiveness.

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 8 of 64 (563241)
06-04-2010 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phage0070
06-04-2010 3:16 AM


Hi Phage
God actually does need to set things up so that Jesus will get betrayed...
...It is like if you wanted to be mugged and decided to hang out in a really bad part of town; you are not making the people there any more muggers than they already were. In this same way, Judas isn't made any more a murderer by actually being able to commit the act...
...Assuming repenting of your sins meant anything at that point, Judas might have been given the opportunity to repent for his thought-crimes and allowed entrance to heaven, rather than likely never asking forgiveness.
If you can accept the existence of God (whatever that is) and magic, then the above scenario could happen in theory. But what is the objective?
- God makes Judas, giving him the character of a backstabber, then puts him in a position where he meets Jesus, so that Judas is then in a prime position to betray Jesus, and so Jesus is then killed, in order that Jesus can then forgive people such as Judas!!!???

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 9 of 64 (563242)
06-04-2010 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
06-03-2010 10:04 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Hi Flyer
You ask: was his execution necessary to save mankind? Yes, it was. It was part of the covenant in the OT, fulfilled in the NT.
This is the question that interests me the most. Is there anything in the OT or anywhere else that tries to explain why it was necessary for Jesus to be executed in order for him/God to "save" us?

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Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 10 of 64 (563250)
06-04-2010 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-04-2010 4:43 AM


Re: Interesting.....
quote:
This is the question that interests me the most. Is there anything in the OT or anywhere else that tries to explain why it was necessary for Jesus to be executed in order for him/God to "save" us?
Somehow it works like this. If you break the Law, you'll be sentenced, whether you understand Law or not, whether you read it or not, whether you ever study law itself or not. That's the case.
Similarly God's Law is embedded in your heart and soul. If you offended His Law, you'll be judged and put to jail. If you sinned you'll be driven out of His kingdom, the same as how Adam sinned and being driven out of Eden, and same as how Lucifer the archangel sinned and being driven out of heaven.
God is to save souls instead of bodies here on earth. Here on earth humans are basically not in His Kingdom. That's why the myseries. And everyone requires to pass the final judgment in order to return to God and His kingdom in heaven. And God foresaw that you won't stand a chance in the judgment. Jesus Christ is thus sent and a new covenant is in place which allows you to escape from the Judgment by Law.
If you refuse to take the new covenant, and when you are judged to be sinful, a permanent separation from God will be called. It is said that His sheep will take the new covenant. It is also said that those who aren't His sheep will continue to sin against His Law without repentance.
Moreover, it is said in the Book of Revelation that Satan (who is said to be an ex-archangel) is an accuser accussing people of sinning in order to keep them in jail with him. So good luck, either to find yourself a good lawyer or prepare yourself for the defense.
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."
Alternatively, take the Second Covenant as a gift such that the final Judgment by Law can be avoided.
Moreover, your OP is more of a question of how pre-destination is implemented. By far in human history, no one knows. Calvin ever made an attempt and Calvinism which is with flaws and not necessarily true.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 11 of 64 (563254)
06-04-2010 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
06-03-2010 10:04 PM


Re: Interesting.....
The betrayal of Christ was predicted almost to a "t" in the OT. Judas wasn't named but the price was.
If you're referring to Zechariah 11:12-13, it hardly qualifies as to a "t"; if it wasn't for the mention of 30 pieces of silver there'd be practically no link at all. Not to mention the usual problem with Biblical "prophecies" that the person writing the Gospels had access to, and knew of, the "prophecies" and could deliberately reference them.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 64 (563256)
06-04-2010 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hawkins
06-04-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Interesting.....
And God foresaw that you won't stand a chance in the judgment. Jesus Christ is thus sent and a new covenant is in place which allows you to escape from the Judgment by Law.
This is what I've never understood: why did Yahweh decide to have an ultra strict law that nobody could live up to and then give a get out clause in the first place?
Why not relax the laws (or make them more reasonable in the first place) and nobody would have had to betray anyone or get crucified and preople can still get into heaven?
I assume that because we are talking about Jesus here, that Yahweh is the current ever loving, forgiveness merchant rather than his older incarnation of a total bloodmunger.
Why did Jesus have to die? Why did neoYahweh not just say "look fellas, I know in the past the law was a bit of a fucker, but now I'm seeing things a different way: come on in the gates to heaven are open. No don't worry Jesus, I've decided by fiat that you don't have suffer. Any one for nachos?"

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 64 (563310)
06-04-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-04-2010 4:38 AM


Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
God makes Judas, giving him the character of a backstabber, then puts him in a position where he meets Jesus, so that Judas is then in a prime position to betray Jesus, and so Jesus is then killed, in order that Jesus can then forgive people such as Judas!!!???
Well, yes. It doesn't really explain that predestination element. I suppose if you believe in souls then you believe there is a part of someone that isn't tied to their experiences on Earth. The implication then would be that while the soul is created by God, its form and behavior is freely decided by itself.
This seems to be a paradoxical sequence, but that is easily explained by omnipotence. "Goddidit."

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 64 (563314)
06-04-2010 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hawkins
06-04-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Hawkins writes:
If you break the Law, you'll be sentenced, whether you understand Law or not, whether you read it or not, whether you ever study law itself or not. That's the case.
See now, that is a big theological problem. How can someone be held responsible for breaking a law they don't know about or understand?
The Christian god is by no means clear on its supposed policy or even existence. Any rules it sets up are to a great extent hidden; the interpretation varies widely, and there isn't really an effective method to coordinate beliefs in laws and commands. (I know someone is going to say prayer works for this, but it is clearly objectively useless for pretty much anything but calming down.)
Rules which people are supposed to have broken are just as important as the method of getting out of the punishment, as knowledge of these laws is required in order to reasonably expect obedience. Some sects even believe that there is no punishment without acceptance of Jesus, just no reward. This "hidden rule" seems to me to create an intractable problem; how do you justify punishment based on a secret law?

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 64 (563316)
06-04-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
06-04-2010 6:41 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Larni writes:
Any one for nachos?
Its because God hates nachos.
Hehe, but seriously, the general claim is that God cannot/will not change his mind. Why he often seems to do that in the Old Testament isn't really explained by this theory, but it is basically the position of "I said people would die because of this, so I'm not going to be happy unless there is some killing done!"
Ok, so we didn't really get away from the bloodmonger incarnation. Presumably omnipotence doesn't allow him to do *anything* he likes.

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