Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Reasons for Creationist Persistence
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 16 of 220 (394068)
04-09-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mjfloresta
04-09-2007 1:47 PM


Home Schooling
Home Schooling is just heading a bit off topic here. But I think it would make an interesting thread of it's own. If I'm around I'll try to hurry a promotion of a decent OP.
(personal note: I have a number of slightly distant neices and nephews in law who were home schooled and there is no doubt that one reason was to keep them ignorant. (Other perhaps better reasons were not to subject them to the "immorality" in the regular schools). These neices and nephews (when I last met them) are young-earthers and very ignorant of the facts of geology, biology and cosmology. This was deliberate on the part of their parents.
You experience maybe different but it, like my relatives' experiences, are not universal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mjfloresta, posted 04-09-2007 1:47 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 17 of 220 (394071)
04-09-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
04-06-2007 1:34 PM


quote:
So, what really keeps those Creos ticking? How can you present point after point after point and have it rejected, and still keep trying?
Because your point after point after point keeps shifting with the sands of time and short time at that. Here a point and that point gone tomorrow. Which means those points and points are meant to be rejected. You can't make up your scientific mind what's what, so I'm gonna wait until you do, then I'm gonna remember the last time you were so sure.
I'm still waiting for some proof from you people about origin, initial, very first, how it all began.
Reading scientific theories of 'we think' is cool until some other kook comes along with another scientific theory on the very same subject only different.
You have a nerve to talk about me.
I don't know too many creos who argue creationism as science. Where do you find them and how do you know they are real creationists? Do they tell you.........'Hi, I'm a creationist and I believe creation is science", and how many have you accurately polled? And how many can you actually swear are actually creationists?
I think you are mistaken and here to prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 04-06-2007 1:34 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-09-2007 3:00 PM DorfMan has replied
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2007 3:14 PM DorfMan has replied
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 04-09-2007 6:47 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 220 (394072)
04-09-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mjfloresta
04-09-2007 1:47 PM


Re: The Current Plan of the Christian Cult of Ignorance
Jar's above statement reflects what I perceive to be the concensus opinion of this site, that is, the idea that the Christian/Creationist paradigm somehow "keeps" such students in a state of ignorance resulting in an incapability to reason and perform, especially in the sciences.
Not at all, it is not an indictment of Christian/Creationist positions at all. In fact I am a Christian Creationist. It is an indictment of the Christian Cult of Ignorance which would include all YECS, Biblical Creationists and most ID supporters.
While the high reknown of "fundamentalist christian scientists" throughout the centuries bears witness to the absurdity of such a claim, it is not to antiquity that I want to turn, but to the present.
Again, an example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of sleight of hand and misdirection. No scientific advance has ever been made based on Christian belief or theology.
As one who falls into both of Jar's favorite categories ("Fundamentalist Christian and Home-schooled student) my personal experience as well as those of countless friends and acquaintances categorically denies any such implication as a result of being raised with a pardaigm of "ignorance"...
Again, the Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of misdirection and sleight of hand can be seen.
I do NOT discount home schooling. In fact I believe that real schooling is best done at home. What I say is that the Christian Cult of Ignorance has decided to use home schooling and church schooling as tools to promote ignorance and to isolate their children from any possibility of being exposed to truth.
It is not home schooling or even church schools that are the problem, but rather the perversion of those tools to allow the Christian Cult of Ignorance to maintain control of the children's access to information. I have no issues with either home schooling or church schools. I personally am a product of Church Schools and much of what I know is a direct result of things taught to me at home.
Although many similar claims have been leveled before - at me, at acquaintances, and at home-schoolers/christians at large..never is there any standard of measurement applied by those asserting the claim. HOWEVER, based on the traditionally-valued standards of academic success, I find these claims to be absolutely baseless and ad hominem in nature, as such claims are never empirically validated.
Well, supporting evidence is the fact that there are people who believe in a Young Earth and Biblical Creationism. Such people are either ignorant, deluded or liars.
The reason that the Christian Cult of Ignorance is turning to Church Schools and Home Schooling is that they know that their core beliefs, Biblical Creationism and or Young Earth, can not stand up to examination. They know from experience that if children are allowed to learn the truth, they will abandon such nonsense. In addition, they know that society will watch their efforts in a more open environment such as the public school system.
The only hope for the Christian Cult of Ignorance is to isolate the kids, to keep them in intellectual bondage as long as possible, to give brainwashing and indoctrinating the best chance and to keep the children from developing critical thinking skills.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mjfloresta, posted 04-09-2007 1:47 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 220 (394078)
04-09-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by DorfMan
04-09-2007 2:22 PM


Dorfman writes:
You can't make up your scientific mind what's what, so I'm gonna wait until you do, then I'm gonna remember the last time you were so sure.
That's an excellent example of why (Biblical) creationists are so persistent: laziness.
They want all The Answers™ now and they want them to last forever. They don't want to put any effort into keeping up with advances in knowledge.
Edited by Ringo, : Added "Biblical".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 2:22 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 3:42 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 04-09-2007 3:50 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 220 (394080)
04-09-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by DorfMan
04-09-2007 2:22 PM


Because your point after point after point keeps shifting with the sands of time and short time at that. Here a point and that point gone tomorrow. Which means those points and points are meant to be rejected. You can't make up your scientific mind what's what, so I'm gonna wait until you do, then I'm gonna remember the last time you were so sure.
Is there any other body of scientific knowledge which you reject because it is in a continual process of improvement and refinement, or is it just basic biology?
I'm still waiting for some proof from you people about origin, initial, very first, how it all began.
While we're waiting, why don't you try accepting the answers to all the questions we do know the answers to?
I don't know too many creos who argue creationism as science. Where do you find them and how do you know they are real creationists?
Ever hear of the Dover Panda Trial?
How do I know they're real creationists? 'Cos they say they are. Do you suppose that they're secretly evolutionists who've infiltrated creationism in order to make it look dumber?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 2:22 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 3:40 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 21 of 220 (394088)
04-09-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
04-09-2007 3:14 PM


quote:
While we're waiting, why don't you try accepting the answers to all the questions we do know the answers to?
I would, but you don't have any. That's the whole point. You have guesswork and you stroke one another's ego with it. OOOO that feels good, how about another one.......
quote:
How do I know they're real creationists? 'Cos they say they are. Do you suppose that they're secretly evolutionists who've infiltrated creationism in order to make it look dumber?
Yeah, and I'm the Emperor Norton of San Francisco. 'Cos I say I am.
Something has been infiltrated. Chance a guess as to what that might be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2007 3:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2007 3:58 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 22 of 220 (394090)
04-09-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
04-09-2007 3:00 PM


quote:
That's an excellent example of why (Biblical) creationists are so persistent: laziness.
They want all The Answers™ now and they want them to last forever. They don't want to put any effort into keeping up with advances in knowledge.
oooooooooooo!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-09-2007 3:00 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AdminNosy, posted 04-09-2007 3:48 PM DorfMan has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 23 of 220 (394091)
04-09-2007 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by DorfMan
04-09-2007 3:42 PM


Warning Dorf
You are cluttering up a thread with childishness. Stop now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 3:42 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DorfMan, posted 04-10-2007 9:09 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 24 of 220 (394092)
04-09-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
04-09-2007 3:00 PM


Ringo writes:
That's an excellent example of why (Biblical) creationists are so persistent: laziness.
They want all The Answers™ now and they want them to last forever. They don't want to put any effort into keeping up with advances in knowledge.
I tend to think that you're right in a lot of ways. If you take the Bible as being literally true then it makes things it relatively simple and you can come up with answers for most questions and not have to think about it.
It seems to me however, that if Christians believe in a God that created us, still cares about us and does still have an impact on our lives, then I we should at least give consideration to the idea that, just maybe, God is using the scientific community to reveal more of the truth of His creation to us than he was able to 3000 years or so ago to the early Israelites.
One problem I suppose is that there seems to be a group that feels that if a six day creation period isn't literally true then none of it's true. It's a shame really. God is a whole lot bigger than one book; even one that is inspired.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-09-2007 3:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-09-2007 4:03 PM GDR has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 25 of 220 (394094)
04-09-2007 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by DorfMan
04-09-2007 3:40 PM


I would, but you don't have any. That's the whole point. You have guesswork and you stroke one another's ego with it. OOOO that feels good, how about another one.......
If reciting nutty stuff like this magically made it true, creationists would have won the debate long ago.
Yeah, and I'm the Emperor Norton of San Francisco. 'Cos I say I am.
Something has been infiltrated. Chance a guess as to what that might be.
It is not possible to tell from this gibberish whether you really are trying to deny that people who push creationism as science are creationists.
It's a simple question, yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 3:40 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 220 (394097)
04-09-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
04-09-2007 3:50 PM


GDR writes:
One problem I suppose is that there seems to be a group that feels that if a six day creation period isn't literally true then none of it's true.
I think the laziness applies to Biblical thinking just as it does to scientific thinking. They don't want to have to look at the scientific evidence (or the Bible) and try to improve their understanding of it. They just want to accept or reject it wholesale.
We see it here all the time: people who swallow the six-day creation dogma will swallow whatever dogma they have been fed. There's no desire - or even willingness - to put any effort into understanding.
It isn't just bad information that they want to foster. It's a bad way of thinking.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 04-09-2007 3:50 PM GDR has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 27 of 220 (394103)
04-09-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
04-06-2007 2:19 PM


Creationists: A Renewable Nuisance
It's the PT Barnum principle at work.
Precisely, and not in the sense that subbie took it.
I've personally witnessed what happens to creationists who are honest and sincere enough to do the necessary research. They don't last long. They soon learn that they'd been lied to and they leave the fray, sometimes also leave the faith. Or else they remain in the fray, but now as opponents of creation science.
In the meantime, new suckers are indeed being born every minute. The creation science literature remains out there unchanged with all the tired old soundly-refuted false claims still intact, and now we also have a multitude of creationist web sites touting the same false claims. And every year the fresh new batch of newbies comes along to gobble up on that garbage and regurgitate it in countless forums, both on-line and off. To them it's all new and exciting and none of them realize that it was already old garbage and refuted long before they were even born. Yes, subbie, the purveyors of creation science (ie, the ICRs, the Hovinds, etc) cannot help but know that their claims are false and so they keep repeating long enough and loud enough so that they may fool the public. But these newbies, these new suckers born every minute, don't know that and they actually think that this is really great new stuff.
And it can be great fun to see someone present some "brand new scientific evidence that will just blow those evolutionists away", only to find their intended mark laughing in their face, informing them how old that "brand new" claim is, and describing to them precisely why it's pure crock. Well, it can be fun if you ignore the fact that that creationist's faith has started to get blown away, to be destroyed by creation science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 04-06-2007 2:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-10-2007 1:08 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 220 (394123)
04-09-2007 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by DorfMan
04-09-2007 2:22 PM


quote:
Reading scientific theories of 'we think' is cool until some other kook comes along with another scientific theory on the very same subject only different.
You might have had a point if scientific theories were accepted based on how cool they were.
In real life, scientific theories are accepted or rejected based on how well real life data supports them.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by DorfMan, posted 04-09-2007 2:22 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 29 of 220 (394126)
04-09-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
04-06-2007 1:34 PM


Creationism arguments are completely built upon style. Creationism itself is devoid of science and many of the debaters of creationism (at least the educated ones) knows this. They understand that any honest disucssion focused on one or two subjects will reveal how weak they are hence why creationists in such debates engage in shotguns or glipglosh tactics. All they have to do is to convince people that perhaps science is wrong. They don't actually have to address a single scientific point. There's a key reason why there is no creationist peer review: they know they won't stand up to actual science, hence why creationists play into a specific audience: the audience that is largely ignorant of how science works.
Go to teenage internet forums. You'll find creationist and you'll see them winning in many places for a key reason. Teens for the most part are scientific ignorant. They don't know any better. Creationists target ignorant audiences that they can manipulate. I've challenged a few creationists on forums to come here. Every single one of them refuses after getting a look. It's not about facts: it's about using style and emotion to convince people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 04-06-2007 1:34 PM Jon has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 30 of 220 (394207)
04-10-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by AdminNosy
04-09-2007 3:48 PM


Re: Warning Dorf
quote:
You are cluttering up a thread with childishness. Stop now.
Or what, Nosy? I'd like a penny for the childishness that clutters this place ad infinitum including yours right here -- aside from a fine showing of impotence. I'm here once in a blue moon. So, why don't you ban me until the next blue moon to show how potent your moderatorship is. You crack me up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AdminNosy, posted 04-09-2007 3:48 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AdminQuetzal, posted 04-10-2007 9:31 AM DorfMan has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024