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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(3)
Message 256 of 4573 (798373)
02-02-2017 5:23 AM


GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
Been watching with nothing short of despair as daily the news from the US rolls in re: Trump's policies.
I struggle to understand how a lot of these policies can be justified even to a sympathetic ear.
Case in point: House Republicans Vote to End Rule Stopping Coal Mining Debris From Being Dumped in Streams
Time
"Moving to dismantle former President Barack Obama's legacy on the environment and other issues, House Republicans approved a measure Wednesday that scuttles a regulation aimed at preventing coal mining debris from being dumped into nearby streams."
How is it that anyone can think that it is good for mining run-off and debris to end up in rivers and streams? I genuinely want to understand the thought process that decides, "yes, this is a good idea".
It surely can't be the case that the GOP sit in a room rubbing their hand together and explicitly plot environmental destruction in a cartoon manner. They must have some rationalisation for these policies. or am I being too idealistic?
I invite anyone to attempt to justify this
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by vimesey, posted 02-02-2017 5:39 AM Heathen has replied
 Message 317 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-07-2017 11:56 PM Heathen has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 257 of 4573 (798374)
02-02-2017 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Heathen
02-02-2017 5:23 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
Well, the motivation is clearly money. Maybe they feel that Trump's win means that money is now all the justification you need.
It's like the racists and hard right thugs such as Yiannopoulos, who believe that they now have a mandate and popular support for their vile cesspits of ideas.
There's been a move to the right and to populism - the extreme right and the rich are cashing in.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Heathen, posted 02-02-2017 5:23 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Heathen, posted 02-02-2017 6:06 AM vimesey has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 258 of 4573 (798375)
02-02-2017 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by vimesey
02-02-2017 5:39 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
Yes I understand that the real motivation is money, but are they that blatant?
Are their policy documents stating "screw the environment, let's cash in" or is there some kind of argument that dumping this crap in the rivers is actually harmless?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 4573 (798376)
02-02-2017 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Heathen
02-02-2017 6:06 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
I think they weigh the benefits of doing business with the same regulations that competitors enjoy. They probably hired some expert to tell them that the streams damage was minimal and that the benefit of freeing up business and minimizing government regulations was worth it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 260 of 4573 (798377)
02-02-2017 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Heathen
02-02-2017 6:06 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
I genuinely believe that at the moment, they think they can get away with anything. No one in authority in politics is opposing anything Trump does.
The Democrats appear not to have a leader of any substance or eloquence - the GOP are either gleeful or silent - and anyone in a functional role in government just gets replaced if they speak up.
The Courts and lawyers seem to be doing what they can, but it's firefighting and not a concerted opposition. There are protests, but no organised voice of opposition and sense.
As long as this situation prevails, I think that corporate greed genuinely feels it no longer has to even pretend.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 261 of 4573 (798380)
02-02-2017 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by vimesey
02-02-2017 6:28 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
The Courts and lawyers seem to be doing what they can, but it's firefighting and not a concerted opposition. There are protests, but no organised voice of opposition and sense.
Trump is working hard to bring all these people together to make America Greater ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(6)
Message 262 of 4573 (798440)
02-02-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by RAZD
02-02-2017 7:18 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
There's a good editorial in today's New York Times (The Peculiar Populism of Donald Trump) that explains how the left lost its working-man's base. As people grow more affluent their concerns evolve from the basics of living to less immediate concerns like the environment and LGBT rights, and the left evolved right along with them, to the point where they no longer seemed to represent the concerns of the working man.
But Trump doesn't represent the working man, either. His populism *feels* like it speaks for the common man, but in reality all Trump promised was to make the United States the baddest-ass country in the world, one that would be respected or else. This evidently has some strong appeal, but it contains no economic promise.
How fast will the common man wake up? Will it happen when his insurance disappears? When his fishing streams disappear? When a highway rumbles through his back yard? When his clean water dries up? Who knows. Trump is a populist with an amazing ability to convince people he's on their side.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2017 9:10 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 267 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 9:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 278 by marc9000, posted 02-04-2017 9:56 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 263 of 4573 (798494)
02-02-2017 9:58 PM


Unexpected News
In some unexpectedly good news on the foreign affairs front, Trump says he will not lift Russian sanctions until Russia leaves the Crimea and stops destabilizing the Ukraine, and that Israel should stop expanding West Bank settlements beyond current boundaries because it hurts the chances for peace, and that sanctions on Iran would be about the same as those planned by the Obama administration.
There's hope for this administration, perhaps, at least in foreign affairs?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 02-02-2017 10:35 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 266 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2017 9:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 4573 (798502)
02-02-2017 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
02-02-2017 9:58 PM


Re: Unexpected News
I don't trust him yet. I think he is playing give and take.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 02-02-2017 9:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 265 of 4573 (798535)
02-03-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
02-02-2017 1:30 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
There's a good editorial in today's New York Times (The Peculiar Populism of Donald Trump) that explains how the left lost its working-man's base. As people grow more affluent their concerns evolve from the basics of living to less immediate concerns like the environment and LGBT rights, and the left evolved right along with them, to the point where they no longer seemed to represent the concerns of the working man.
Nice article. I liked the image that shows income inequality geographically:
The blue and light blue represent 55% of US GDP.
The CALexit people note that California has the 6th largest economy in the world, and I suspect that the Washington to Boston corridor, and that leaves a lot of left out low income in "fly-over" America.
... to the point where they no longer seemed to represent the concerns of the working man.
And because of the Clintonism neo-lib plan to crowd the GOP ever further to the right while feeling entitled to votes from their old base constituents, the labor unions, the blacks and immigrants, etc, assuming progressives would choose republican-light over republican-dark, assuming people would vote even when nobody on the ticket represented their issues.
How fast will the common man wake up? Will it happen when his insurance disappears? When his fishing streams disappear? When a highway rumbles through his back yard? When his clean water dries up? Who knows. Trump is a populist with an amazing ability to convince people he's on their side.
There is hope ...
quote:
Sportsmen Help Quash Public Land Sale Bill In Congress
The sponsor of a bill that would have required the disposal of 180,000 acres of federal, public land in Idaho and Oregon as well as millions more acres elsewhere in the West dropped it overnight after outcry from sportsmen and others.
A Facebook message accompanying an image of Utah Rep. Jason Chaffetz dudded up in a camo coat, hat bearing a stylized elk, and carrying a hound states that he withdrew House Resolution 621 because groups I support and care about fear it sends the wrong message.
The bill included 70,000 acres in the Beaver State and 110,000 acres in the Gem State. While some parcels are large blocks — including 44,000 acres in Harney County many are smaller, and often have impediments to their sale, such as mining claims, lack of legal access, ESA species, etc.
Showing that sportsmen need to be alert to attempts by both sides of the aisle to sell off our lands, the ground in Chaffetz’s bill had originally been identified in 1997 by the Clinton Administration as potential revenue sources to pay for restoration work in the Everglades, according to the Salem Statesman-Journal.
So this turnabout occurred due to massive grass roots protests from sportsmen (and women) as well as the environmentalists. Guess the republicans thought they could ignore "fly-over" America just as much as the DNC/DINO democrats

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 4573 (798536)
02-03-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
02-02-2017 9:58 PM


Re: Unexpected News
There's hope for this administration, perhaps, at least in foreign affairs?
Perhaps. In another note, the Trump administration is saying that maybe new settlements in the Gaza strip are not helpful to peace. They are still hedging and not saying that such settlements are harmful, as ought to be obvious enough.
Perhaps a little OJT as Cats Eye called it is occurring.
Meanwhile, in defending the ban on Muslims from seven countries Kellyanne Conway talked about the cover-up of a Bowling Green massacre that never happened.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 02-02-2017 9:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 4573 (798538)
02-03-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
02-02-2017 1:30 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
How fast will the common man wake up? Will it happen when his insurance disappears? When his fishing streams disappear? When a highway rumbles through his back yard? When his clean water dries up?
Maybe when the black lung health coverage disappears, but the coal mining jobs don't come back? As best as I can tell, these are the non-Democrats most likely to hold Trump responsible for any failures.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 02-02-2017 1:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 268 of 4573 (798582)
02-03-2017 3:02 PM


Trump Going After Dodd-Frank
The Republicans keep failing to learn history and the rest of the country keeps paying for it. The 2008 financial meltdown was just the most recent crisis, and it happened for reasons we know very well because they've happened before: insufficient cushions built into the financial system.
While the reasons for each crisis differ, that there will be financial crises is one thing we can be sure of. That's why we have laws about financial reserves that the Republican periodically role back, forcing us to relearn the lessons of the past all over again, that robust financial institutions are essential to a strong and healthy economy.
Banks are required to keep on hand a certain percentage of deposits as insurance against stresses in the financial system, and those reserves are not available for making loans or employing in other money-making ways, so Banks would prefer to dedicate as few funds to reserves as possible, but it was lack of sufficient reserves that caused the financial crisis of 2008.
Now the Republicans in congress are working to roll back Dodd-Frank, the set of financial rules the Obama administration put in place to restore faith in the financial system that collapsed due to the mortgage security scandal. Who knows when the next financial crisis will come, but we can be sure that it *will* come because there's always another financial crisis, and when it does we'll again be just as vulnerable as we were in 2008. And who will pay for it? Not the financial fat cats, that's for sure. We'll pay for it again in the form of government bailouts, just like we did in 2008.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2017 3:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 269 of 4573 (798584)
02-03-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Percy
02-03-2017 3:02 PM


Re: Trump Going After Dodd-Frank
And they are going to let financial advisors continue ripping off retirees

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Percy, posted 02-03-2017 3:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 270 of 4573 (798619)
02-03-2017 8:43 PM


What a Defunded EPA Means for America
A number of Trump's cabinet appointees are climate deniers. They told bald-faced lies about their beliefs with regard to climate change and global warming during their hearings. anything to get the appointment.
I ran across this article today: Here’s What a Defunded EPA Means for America, The agency Trump plans to eviscerate does much more than fight climate change. BY John Light, Feb. 3, 2017
The George Washington Bridge in heavy smog, photographed during the early 1970s before many of today's clean air protections were put in place. This photograph is part of the Environmental Protection Agency's series to "Photographically Document Subjects of Environmental Concern," compiled 1972-77. (The US National Archives/Flickr)

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
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