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Author Topic:   banning burqas
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 188 (571919)
08-02-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mick
08-02-2010 11:19 PM


Theocracy vs. democracy?
Either you've changed the topic of this thread, or this is an example of the sort of thing I was talking about in my first post here.
If Muslim women are being denied the right to participate in the political process, that is indeed antidemocratic in the extreme. But no where in your OP did you mention that. And, if your concern is actually that Muslim women are being denied the right to vote, I'm hard pressed to see how banning burqas will do anything to change that.
I agree wholeheartedly that in a dispute between the predominance of democracy and the predominance of religions doctrine, democracy wins hands down, all the time every time. But your OP certainly didn't obviously present a choice between those two alternatives.
Likewise, to the extent that your real concern is that women and men have equal standing in society, banning burqas addresses only one small way in which Islam oppresses women. The fact that this is the focus of the legislation makes me suspect that there's something else behind these measures besides protecting women.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:19 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:42 PM subbie has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 17 of 188 (571918)
08-02-2010 11:30 PM


What Burkas?
I live live in an area with a large Muslim population. I see women wearing face/head covering every day, lots of them. I have never seen a burka.
Here's a useful graphic;
Now I see a lot of women wearing khimars, chadors and hijabs. I see some wearing the naqib - the most extreme covering that is normally seen round here. No-one wears a burka. I have never even seen a burka. I dunno, maybe there are some burka wearers out there who've escaped my notice, but as a rule, they are not seen.
So for starters, for any discussion of this issue to make sense, we need to get our terminology right and decide what's being discussed.
Now I disapprove of the veil. I think that the religious/cultural imposition of any dress code upon women is a form of oppression. In this case the emphasis on covering the face and head is a clear attempt at dehumanising the wearer. The weird attitudes to sex that are often cited in association with the veil are deeply disturbing. I think that covering ones face all the time is a form of rudeness. I disapprove of flamboyantly public displays of religiosity. I also know of women in abusive relationships are forced to wear the veil under threat of violence. The veil is also very useful at covering up the bruises. I think that the veil is very nasty indeed.
I am against banning veils.
No-one has the right to tell women how to dress beyond a minimum expectation of decency. That goes for misogynist Imams and and for those who want to ban veils. What any woman wears should be her own decision - end of story.
I am also concerned about the motivations of some of those who support bans - not including anyone commenting here I hasten to add! In my country, I suspect that it is mainly flag-waving Daily Mail readers and embittered Islamophobes who want veils banned. They want them banned not because they oppress women, but because they are a public expression of Islam, indeed of simply being different, which is enough to get some peoples hackles up in itself.
There's also the fact that this is guaranteed to inflame Muslim opinion. It's going to unnecessarily piss people off and cause a great deal of hostility among Muslims. This is exactly the sort of thing that will act as a recruiting sergeant for extremist groups and terrorists.
The last thing I want to say is well done to David Mitchell. He says that a ban would be the best way to persuade him to wear a burka himself. Spot on. That was exactly my reaction - I already plan to do the same. I may despise the veil and despise Islam, but trying to legislate them out of existence is both impossible and oppressive and I am strongly opposed to it.
Mutate and Survive

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 18 of 188 (571921)
08-02-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
08-02-2010 11:29 PM


nwr writes:
From what I have read on blogs, it seems that liberals are split on this issue.I don't mean that some liberals are going one way, and some the other. Rather, they seem to have an internal disagreement with themselves. The basic principle is that the government should not be interfering with what is really a personal decision. The conflict comes because people aren't so sure that they should count this as a personal decision given that the burquas are used for cultural oppression of women. I think that I lean to some sort of restriction on their use, but I still have that internal conflict over the issue
You have put the problem better than I did. It seems to be a case in which the benefits to society and to individuals seem quite at odds to each other, with complications arising from the suspicion that the choices being made are not entirely free. This is mainly why I looked at the RAWA site, to see what women who are ACTUALLY forced to wear this clothing think about it. I could have gone either way, but felt that I should probably side with Afghan feminists over this one, since they are probably better informed about the issues than myself (specifically, how frequelntly individual choice is overridden in the wearing of this garment).
In order to clarify some of my comments above, I should say that I consider the burqa to be an important issue simply because it is a challenging one, not because it is more "important" than genital mutilation or whatever. Simply because it challenges us to work out what we mean by democracy and freedom. That's all!

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 19 of 188 (571922)
08-02-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by subbie
08-02-2010 11:30 PM


Re: Theocracy vs. democracy?
Hi Subbie,
Feel free to question my motivations, but I assure you I'm a feminist who actually has the interest of Muslim women at heart. I am not interested in this issue because I dislike women or Muslim women or Muslim men or anybody else. I've already said I'm concerned about being in dodgy company.
I certainly don't mean to change the topic of conversation (though by comparison with other threads on EvC it's staying on target pretty well so far).
I will await further replies and see if they change my mind. I am totally open to changing my mind on this issue, I assure you!
Best wishes,
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 08-02-2010 11:30 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 20 of 188 (571924)
08-02-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
08-02-2010 11:15 PM


ringo writes:
I don't see any real difference between forcing women to wear the burqa and banning them from wearing it.
Well that is a fair point.
I don't see any real difference between raping women and banning them from being raped.
I don't see any real difference between forcing women to vote as their husbands tell them, and banning their husbands from telling them how to vote.
etc.
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 11:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Granny Magda, posted 08-02-2010 11:57 PM mick has replied
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 11:58 PM mick has replied
 Message 29 by Iblis, posted 08-03-2010 12:09 AM mick has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 21 of 188 (571925)
08-02-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mick
08-02-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Theocracy vs. democracy?
Friend Mick, I did not intend to question your motivation. I was instead referring to the motivations of those proposing the bans, for the reasons Granny spelled out in his antepenultimate paragraph, i.e. xenophobia, pandering and jingoism.
I guess the question I would pose to you, and you needn't reply here, but simply consider for your own purposes, is why burqas? I'm sure you're aware that there are countless other issues of far greater concern, and that don't have legitimate concerns about whether they needlessly infringe on the freedom of those who may choose to wear them for their own personal reasons.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:42 PM mick has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 22 of 188 (571926)
08-02-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mick
08-02-2010 11:49 PM


I don't see any real difference between raping women and banning them from being raped.
What a disgustingly offensive and imbecilic statement.
There are women who want to wear the veil mick.
There are, I'm guessing, significantly fewer who wish to be raped.
Now I realise that you made that statement for rhetorical effect and I'm sure you thought it sounded pretty clever, but if you genuinely cannot perceive the moral difference between a woman choosing to wear a veil and a woman being raped, then I would suggest that you are way out of your depth in any moral discussion of any kind whatsoever.
Fail. Try again.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:49 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by mick, posted 08-03-2010 12:09 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 188 (571927)
08-02-2010 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mick
08-02-2010 11:49 PM


mick writes:
I don't see any real difference between raping women and banning them from being raped.
That would be a fair comparison if all women were on the same side of the issue. Your own source says that some women want to wear the niqab. By your analogy, banning it would be the equivalent of banning women from consensual rough sex.
Edited by ringo, : Missspellled "wimmin".

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:49 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by mick, posted 08-03-2010 12:01 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 24 of 188 (571928)
08-02-2010 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Granny Magda
08-02-2010 11:30 PM


Re: What Burkas?
Granny Magda,
I found your arguments quite compelling.
Do you think it makes a difference if it is an adult woman who chooses to cover her face (let's say with a burqa, even though I appreciate they are rare, but it could just as well be some other kind of veil) and a young girl aged 10? Because the latitude for personal choice is obviously greater in the former than the latter.
This could potentially be a compromise, that burqas are only worn by adults. (not meaning to sound too daily mail - I guess you see where I am coming from...)
in edit: actually it may be the case that burqas are only worn by adults, with different types of segregation for young girls. I'm not sure.
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Granny Magda, posted 08-02-2010 11:30 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Granny Magda, posted 08-03-2010 12:28 AM mick has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 25 of 188 (571929)
08-03-2010 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
08-02-2010 11:58 PM


ringo writes:
That would be a fair comparison if all women were on the same side of the issue. Your own source says that some women want to wear the niqab. By your analogy, banning it would be the equivalent of banning women from consensual rough sex.
Ok I grant that it is a good point. I'll have to think about that and it may contribute to me changing my mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-02-2010 11:58 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 26 of 188 (571930)
08-03-2010 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by mick
08-03-2010 12:01 AM


mick writes:
Ok I grant that it is a good point. I'll have to think about that and it may contribute to me changing my mind.
Ringo, part of my concern is out of solidarity with women who are forced to veil themselves in Afghanistan.
I suppose it would be like banning consensual rough sex out of concern for women who are raped. That obviously cannot be right.
How about my other example:
I cannot see the difference between forcing a woman to vote as her husband chooses, versus banning him from forcing her to vote as he chooses.
I think the fact that burqa may be in some very serious sense be forced and not wholly consensual, may be important here.
This does raise some other concerns about the meaning of consensus. Can somebody "choose to be a slave", etc, (not in a kinky sense but in a real chains and whips and hard labour on a farm sense)
I'll think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mick, posted 08-03-2010 12:01 AM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by subbie, posted 08-03-2010 12:15 AM mick has replied
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 08-03-2010 12:20 AM mick has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 188 (571931)
08-03-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by mick
08-02-2010 11:06 PM


You haven't actually made your position clear.
Really? The phrase,
Jazzns previously writes:
Nobody should be forced to wear something they do not want to, but we absolutely do NOT stand in solidarity with Muslim women by taking a fanatical and fundamental stand against a simple freedom such as choice of dress.
, wasn't clear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:06 PM mick has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 28 of 188 (571932)
08-03-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Granny Magda
08-02-2010 11:57 PM


granny magda writes:
What a disgustingly offensive and imbecilic statement.
There are women who want to wear the veil mick.
There are, I'm guessing, significantly fewer who wish to be raped.
Now I realise that you made that statement for rhetorical effect and I'm sure you thought it sounded pretty clever, but if you genuinely cannot perceive the moral difference between a woman choosing to wear a veil and a woman being raped, then I would suggest that you are way out of your depth in any moral discussion of any kind whatsoever.
Fail. Try again.
Mutate and Survive
Quite, I apologise for that, it was meant to be a startling analogy but obviously not a very good one. I actually edited it afterwards and added an alternative about being forced to vote, which I think is a bit of a closer analogy. I should have deleted the thing about rape altogether and I'm sorry I did not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Granny Magda, posted 08-02-2010 11:57 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 29 of 188 (571933)
08-03-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by mick
08-02-2010 11:49 PM


False Analogy
I don't see any real difference between raping women and banning them from being raped.
Nope, I have to agree very strongly with Ringo on this one. A better analogy would be, I don't see any difference between raping women and preventing them from having voluntary sex with someone they want to.
I know there are a lot of Muslim women who are praying for the traditional dress to be outlawed because then their parents / husbands / owners won't be able to make them wear it, but, that's not the right way to do this in a free society.
The proper way to deal with this problem is to find some brave girl who is willing to testify that she is being forced to wear the burqa or whatever oppression is happening, and enact severe punishments on the men that are engaging in this behavior. Outlawing the veil won't magically get these women their civil rights back. It will just gloss over the issue and encourage people to think that the nanny government owns us.
Having said that, specific legal provisions like showing your face when required for identification purposes don't bother me. What I'm against is the kind of thinking that, for example, hair-straightening is a sign of the oppression of the black man, therefore black men who straighten their hair should be punished. Reversing the direction of authoritarianism, does not equal freedom somehow.
There are a lot of ladies, Muslim and otherwise, who consider shapeless garments and covered hair / face as a liberation from sexual objectification. We can't just stomp over them in our rush to rescue the stifled hotties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mick, posted 08-02-2010 11:49 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by mick, posted 08-03-2010 12:14 AM Iblis has not replied
 Message 32 by mick, posted 08-03-2010 12:20 AM Iblis has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 30 of 188 (571934)
08-03-2010 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Iblis
08-03-2010 12:09 AM


Re: False Analogy
Ibis,
As I said before I am sorry about the rape comment, it was clearly a major error of judgement.
But I'm not actually saying we need to "rescue the hotties". It is a legitimate question about the freedom of the individual versus the wellbeing of democracy.
Sorry to have said what I said about rape. I take it back fully and wholeheartedly and thanks to Ringo and Granny Magda I entirely appreciate the egregious error I have made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Iblis, posted 08-03-2010 12:09 AM Iblis has not replied

  
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