Expanding time?

If the distance between all of them is increasing then the galaxies themselves have not moved. If the galaxies are not being carried outward by the increasing spacial dimensions then the nothing part of space has increased between the galaxies.This all sounds just the opposite to the big bang theory that would be more like your balloon analogy. I guess the big bang tried to explain the increasing spacial dimensions but apparently the evidence does not support the balloon analogy?I find it interesting that spacial dimensions appear to be increasing but apparently not from the impetus of say a big bang. Is the big bang theory dead?Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

The spacial dimensions are increasing, as predicted by cosmological models that are generally put under the umbrella of 'big bang'. The 'big bang' is not an explosion that provides impetus, the 'big bang' is just the expansion of space during the early universe through time. Modern cosmology has this early period of expansion as being extremely rapid.So no, the 'big bang' isn't dead. This is the big bang. The balloon analogy has only one purpose - to represent how distance between things can increase without those things moving (by expanding what's between them...in the balloon analogy it is rubber, in cosmology it is space). It is not intended as a complete analogy that describes spacetime. Don't get the actual model used confused with various analogies used to explain certain phenomenon within the model.The balloon analogy represents how space acts through time. The globe analogy represents spacetime as a whole. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Hi Mod, Mod I have read at least 50 hours on the big bang and the theories surrounding it and thought I was getting a grasp on it but I guess not. You just totally lost me in this thread.Skiping to the expansion begins.
Prior to this moment there was no space, no time, no planets, no ....
Did space expand immediately to infinity?Or is space expanding at the rate that The spacial dimensions are increasing?Is the expansion as a sphere?Or is the expansion directional?Don't get way over my head with the answers please.Thank you.

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

OK, say you are standing at 89 degrees latitude (almost completely south) on a perfectly spherical globe. In this thought experiment you can only travel east or west. The circumference for you would be how long it takes travelling east before you get back to where you started. You measure it to be about 1100 metres.If you lived in this universe where you could not see north or south, only east and west, you'd reckon the universe to be about 1100 metres in length.This universe has a twist, however, as time passes you inevitably travel north. Later you measure it again, and this time you find the answer to be 10,000 metres in length!This would be mysterious to you, from your east/west only perspective. However, if we take a 'step back' we can see the globe. You see yourself standing at 89 degrees and walking around and around with a gradual movement north. Travelling north represents forwards in time (south would be backwards in time) and east/west represents movement in space. It seems like the universe is expanding, the length is increasing as time passes!Our universe is much more complicated than the surface of a globe with a single spacial dimension and a single time dimension. It looks more like this - although that doesn't account for all those pesky extra space dimensions either.Here is our problem. In our example we have a single space dimension and a single time dimension and to represent them we need a model which seems '3d'. Obviously we don't use the radius of the globe (depth), but it's there anyway. Topology is a confusing subject, and I get lost a lot - but it is fascinating. Anyway, as you can tell from these complications, trying to represent a four dimensional universe would require an extra hypothetical dimension to represent them in. Since imagining a hypothetical five dimensional object with a four dimensional topology floating within it is fanatically difficult (though I believe some people have managed to get the knack), we simplify to the globe analogy. The expansion isn't the sphere, the sphere represents everything to do with the universe. The past present and future. We have reduced our three dimensions to just one for ease of explanation.Once you can understand this simplified (and I appreciate that simplified seems like a misnomer ), universe the rest follows. I don't want to patronize you so I won't presume what is over your head. Unfortunately it is a simple fact that the answers you are looking for are going to require a lot of thought. The best way I can help is to give you the example of pac-man universe. In this universe pacman can walk off one side of the screen and appear on the opposite side. Thus, the left side is connected to the right side. Imagine curving the screen into a cylinder shape. Do the same for up/down and you end up with a doughnut type shape. Pacman's universe is 2d (ignoring time to keep it very simple), but the representation of Pacman's universe is a doughnut - a three dimensional object (mathematicians like to call it at torus - but that's mathematicians for you).Confusing, I know, and I've probably given you more questions than answers. The cold sweats and headaches are normal, it only gets stranger I'm afraid so if you are an earnest seeker of the mysteries of the universe you're going to have to be content with a lot of states of confusion.It is beautiful though, even just a glimpse of it.

Hi Mod,The picture at: thisWith the big bang to the left end is directional which I have seen several different versions of. The ones I have seen is from the string theory. This I can understand.One of my questions was is this expanding into space or is it creating space as it expands?This one
torusThis is the first time I have seen this one, and yes it will raise a lot of questions. But continue on.Now to time.The only creatures that needs time is man.
Other creatures have built in clock's. We do too we just don't make much use of them today.So why would there even be time in the rest of the universe?

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You answered your own question. Man, since he wants to know how long ago an event ie: big bang, he had to invent a scale of reference, that is, time. Edited by bluescat48, : c\quote box correction

---

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

Yes, time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana. It isn't expanding into space. Remember how to represent our 2D pacman world we needed a '3 dimensional' model - the torus. There is no 3rd spacial dimension in which it exists.You're going to have to get used to the 'universe as a whole' idea. Look at that picture, and for convenience imagine that time stops 100 years from now. That picture represents our entire universe, past and present and short future. It is that shape, period. It doesn't expand, it's just that shape. There is no expansion whatsoever from this perspective. Expansion is only what we perceive to happen as we travel through time - but time is integral to the diagram. Time, and its existence, are real. That most life forms, do not perceive it to the level we do does not influence it. The universe has four dimensions as part of its existence (maybe more), that's just the way it is. Some animals have evolved not only the awareness of the spacial dimensions, but they are also aware of the time dimensions. They neither measure space nor time (they have built in tape measures too).Why does time exist? Why don't we just have four spacial dimensions? That's a big question, a really big one. Its beyond the scope of this thread which is just discussing what spacetime actually is and what it means for space to be expanding and whether or not time is also expanding.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

First, Mod, I would like to thank you for your discussion of space-time.I love your analogies.Just wanted to add one of my own. Just as the existence of UV is real even tho we don't see it -- and bees and birds do.Perception ≠ reality.

Hi Mod, If the spacial dimensions are increasing as stated in Message 17.
Most galaxies are receding from each other at fantastic speeds.How can the universe not expand? So if the space between Galaxies is getting greater space needs to be expanding. I cook so I have done the thing with raisins in a cake. They get further apart as the cake dough expands. The volume of the cake increases as the dough expands. I agree that we perceive time.
But does it exist or is it an illusion?I am a Bible thumper so I have some really weird ideas, according to other Bible thumpers.I believe that everything has always been here in some form, in what I call eternity.Time is something we have here to mark our journey.When time ceases as we know it, be it by our hand, implosion, or some other means eternity will continue on.As I understand it the stuff the universe is composed of cannot go out of existence. Correct me if I am wrong.Carry on,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi bluescat48, ThanksThis was my point man is the only creature that needs time.Have fun,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I warned about getting confused between the two different perspectives. One must be very careful here. The universe is expanding if we look at how space changes over time.Look at the wmap diagram. Keep looking. See how it doesn't expand? It remains the same shape no matter how long you look at it because time is part of the diagram. The diagram is that of space and time. If we made a diagram that changed through time, then it would appear as if the universe was expanding over time, but we could represent it as a 4d object that simply exists.Think about a 1d universe, which is closed and flat. Let us call this a circular universe. Now imagine adding a second dimension (which we'll call time). This universe does not change shape as time progresses, so what happens if we take a circle and extend it into a second dimension where the first space dimension doesn't change?We get a cylinder right? A circle with a 'height' dimension that we use for convenience to represent time. Now, if the universe did expand over time we'd end up with a cone instead of a cylinder, right? If the universe was not expanding in a constant fashion, this cone might look a little like the wmap diagram - correct? Correct, the space expands through time.But the initial confusion was not about space changing through time, but about what happens to spacetime. Nothing happens to space time, just like nothing happens to our cone, our cylinder or our wmap diagram. It just is - it's just a certain shape of x dimensions. There is definitely a dimension called time. Of course, one could resort to the Cartesian demon idea and say that everything but 'I' could well be an illusion but that isn't productive discussion. So yes, time exists. Our perception of it, is quite different from our perception of space and it seems that time works slightly differently than space. Why this should be the case is something of a mystery. And one that is not really the topic here - I wouldn't dream of attempting to answer the question. Perhaps you'd be better off if you read What is Time and Space?

I think you are confusing the analogy with reality.The universe is expanding. When using a globe as an analogy of the expansion, the globe itself, is not expanding.The expansion is analogous to the increase in the size of the latitude lines as you move along a longitude line. A raisin's relative position inside the cake does not change, ie it is not moving. But as the volume of the cake increases, the raisins get farther apart. Similarly, the galaxies in the universe are getting farther apart, but they aren't necessarily moving through space.Make sense? Just don't let the Bible get in the way of your understanding of reality. If we determine that the universe is not eternal, would you reject that determination in favor of your belief? On a quantum level, things zip in and out of existence all the time.

It just seems to me that between the galaxies some force is causing the longitude strings of time between the galaxies to be increasing the latitude strings causing the expansion.If the latitude strings increase then time has not expanded just that time has bled into our present universe.Is this what your all talking about in respect to the sphere that time has not expanded just being bled into our present universe, etc...? Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

First off: Huh!?Are you saying that you think that there is some force between the galaxies that is causing time, which is also between the galaxies, to expand, which is the force that causes space to expand?What are you looking at that makes it seem that way?You think that time is causing the force that is causing the expansion?Post hoc ergo porpter hoc?I honestly don't understand what you are trying to get across. Time is not expanding. What do you mean by bled into our universe? Time is another dimension like the three spatial dimensions are. Time is a component of our universe so I don't think it is being bled in, whatever that means.

Hi Mod, OK got that one. Did it evolve? Or
Did we create it ourselves? Will do but that might raise more questions.Have fun,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."