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Author Topic:   Born Again
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 16 of 388 (606850)
02-28-2011 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
02-18-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
This notion of being 'born again' as an essential part of becoming a Christian seems widespread throughout the religion. However, I was looking for some sort of textual basis behind the concept and came up empty-handed. I couldn't find a lick of support anywhere in the New Testamentespecially in the words attributed to Jesusfor the idea that becoming a Christian requires being 'born again'.
So, what the heck does it mean to be 'born again', and where did the notion originate that such a thing were the beginning moment of the Christian life?
Bible Study is the Forum I feel most comfortable in because I can refer to what's in the Bible the quite naturally.
But instead of quoting the Bible from the start I would ask open minded readers just to consider some thoughts. I am sure that I have been born again and can speak something about it.
When you were born the first time you received a natural life. "Born again" means that in addition to the natural life that you have, you receive another life. It is the addition of a actual life compounded on the life you already have.
As your original natural life began in embryonic form and grew, so it is normal that the Second Birth is a matter of an embryonic "seed" of sorts grows and develops within you.
The outcome of the maturity of this second birth is that you will be just like Jesus Christ someday. In essence the new birth is the rebirth of Jesus Christ on the earth, but this time within the believer.
The goal is that in eternity future God would have Christ as the Firstborn Son of God and millions upon millions of believers as the subsequent sons of God.
Born again, is part of God's plan to mass produce sons of God like Jesus Christ. That is not to duplicate His Godhead or unique work of redemption, but to be a collective and corporate expression of the union of the Divine and the Human as Christ is.
What else could I say? To be born again adds a dimension to human life that was not before there. To be born again completes a part of ones humanity and consciousness which previously was not there.
It is like a black and white movie that suddenly finds itself in technicolor. A new dimension is added which one realizes afterwards that he or she was missing.
He or she was aware that SOMETHING was missing from life. But it was not known WHAT it was. Being born again by receiving Jesus fills that missing puzzle piece with the shape that fits.
Before being born again oner may talk about God, argue about God, philosophies about God, debate about God, and deny God's existence even.
After being born again, He is no longer God up there, out there somewhere. God becomes Daddy - my own dear Heavenly Father. You cannot say that you no longer do not know God.
You know that you have met the Father. And you know that you know.
Being born of God as in John 3 is receiving something that the world cannot give and the world cannot take away. And religion cannot give it or take it away.
Born again is all about an unusual and living Person - the Triune God.
Now I want to give you a true testimony of a Christian friend of mine. He was a teenager when he got born again. And becoming a Christian did cause him some problems with old friends and old lifestyles. At one point he was so exasperated that he prayed that God would leave him.
He told Jesus. "That's it. I don't want you anymore. I want you to come up and go out !! Up and OUT !".
But it didn't work. You cannot reverse your first birth to be unborn. And once you are born again, you cannot reverse that birth.
You may foolishly choose to live the life of a backslidden Christian. But that birth of Christ within your spirit, you can never undo. Whether you like it or not God has imparted something of Himself into you. And you are in His family forever.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 4:49 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 11:12 AM jaywill has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 388 (611619)
04-09-2011 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jaywill
02-28-2011 4:17 PM


Rejection Of The New Birth
jaywill writes:
When you were born the first time you received a natural life. "Born again" means that in addition to the natural life that you have, you receive another life. It is the addition of a actual life compounded on the life you already have.
As your original natural life began in embryonic form and grew, so it is normal that the Second Birth is a matter of an embryonic "seed" of sorts grows and develops within you.
The outcome of the maturity of this second birth is that you will be just like Jesus Christ someday. In essence the new birth is the rebirth of Jesus Christ on the earth, but this time within the believer.
I honestly don't deserve to be a Christian, based on the expectations of such a person. Unlike the widow and her two mites, I am not at all eager to give all that I have away to the poor. I don't believe that I would be cared for in the manner with which I grew up. I don't want to become poor myself. I am, in a word, selfish. Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin. I just want to be left alone. Don't ask me why I don't want to sacrifice for others. I couldn't tell you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 4:17 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 04-09-2011 12:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-09-2011 1:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-10-2011 6:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 388 (611620)
04-09-2011 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-09-2011 11:12 AM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
I honestly don't deserve to be a Christian, based on the expectations of such a person. Unlike the widow and her two mites, I am not at all eager to give all that I have away to the poor. I don't believe that I would be cared for in the manner with which I grew up. I don't want to become poor myself. I am, in a word, selfish. Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin. I just want to be left alone. Don't ask me why I don't want to sacrifice for others. I couldn't tell you.
What does this have to do with being born again?
You say that you might be 'coming close to an unpardonable sin'. How might this relate to the act of repentance for past sins that jar mentioned in Message 15?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 11:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM Jon has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 388 (611622)
04-09-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-09-2011 11:12 AM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes:
Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin.
I'd be inclined to say the opposite. The concept of renewal/rebirth gives you an opportunity to fix your screw-ups on an ongoing basis. What you failed to do today, you can be pardoned for tomorrow. (You do have to make an attempt at repentence, of course.)

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 11:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:50 PM ringo has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 388 (611635)
04-09-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
04-09-2011 12:16 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Jon writes:
What does this have to do with being born again?
Lets talk source and content....
Some believe that the source of the inspiration, or the desire to change or repent comes from God. Others believe that in order to repent, one must own up to their mistakes, sins, and attitudes and actively seek to change them.
My problem is that I don't really feel like changing. Sure, I see the homeless everyday. There is a group of them that hangs out front of my store. Some say they are alcoholics, drug addicted thieves. I certainly can find better use of my spare change than to shower them with it. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) However I feel that I am not having the inner transforming change that being born again involves. I feel no love for many people. I'm not saying that I hate them...I simply feel indifferent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 04-09-2011 12:16 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 4:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 04-09-2011 5:13 PM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 388 (611637)
04-09-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
04-09-2011 1:18 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Ringo writes:
The concept of renewal/rebirth gives you an opportunity to fix your screw-ups on an ongoing basis. What you failed to do today, you can be pardoned for tomorrow. (You do have to make an attempt at repentence, of course.)
What am I supposed to say? "Dear God, please forgive me for being selfish and unloving?" Because in all honesty, I dont now feel any love for the least of my brethren. Oh sure, orphans without legs, maybe. But as for the large majority of suffering people, I simply do not have an inner desire to give them anything...beyond the obligatory five or ten bucks at church.
My point is that I am a failed attempt at a new birth...a new regeneration. God will probably make me poor and crippled, and let me stand on a lonely sidewalk begging for change from people who only see a fat loser who is unattractive and undeserving of any spare change.
I can repent for my sin, but I dont know where to find the inner desire to change and become more generous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-09-2011 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-09-2011 5:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 388 (611638)
04-09-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
04-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes:
However I feel that I am not having the inner transforming change that being born again involves.
GOOD!
Great.
That "inner transforming change that being born again involves" is nothing but a feel good excuse to not do anything, less than you could get from some good LSD or getting laid.
Born again is simply understanding what you did wrong, trying to make amend, and then trying not to do that again.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 5:22 PM jar has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 388 (611640)
04-09-2011 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
04-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Others believe that in order to repent, one must own up to their mistakes, sins, and attitudes and actively seek to change them.
This seems like the most meaningful interpretation to me. Believing that your repentance comes from God is simply passing off responsibility, and is a clear sign of non-repentance.
(That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)
This attitude is entirely against the spirit of repentance; the notion that you prefer the current path and have no desire to change is in direct conflict with the act of repentance.
No matter how hard it is to repent, you first have to want to repent.
Sure, I see the homeless everyday. There is a group of them that hangs out front of my store. Some say they are alcoholics, drug addicted thieves. I certainly can find better use of my spare change than to shower them with it.
quote:
Luke 16:19—31 (NRSV):
'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.
He called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us."
He said, "Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house for I have five brothersthat he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment." Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them." He said, "No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."'
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 12:30 PM Jon has replied
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-12-2011 12:30 PM Jon has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 388 (611644)
04-09-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-09-2011 4:50 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
jar writes:
Born again is simply understanding what you did wrong, trying to make amend, and then trying not to do that again.
What part does God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit play in all of this?
Why did Jesus want us to follow Him? It seems easy for Gods Son to live the life of a homeless teacher. Its a bit like a son of wealthy parents deciding to hitchhike around the country following Phish.
The idea that God expects me to be loving and generous and yet gives me no power to do so leaves me asking someone...anyone...for advice. I simply dont feel inspired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 4:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 5:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 2:14 PM Phat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 388 (611645)
04-09-2011 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
04-09-2011 5:22 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Born again is simply understanding what you did wrong, trying to make amend, and then trying not to do that again.
What part does God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit play in all of this?
They can encourage you to change, gave you a brain and senses, presented lessons that were gathered into the stories in the Bible (have you read that yet? ), parents that taught you and provided examples, teachers and mentors and the charge to do.
But it is up to you to do.
Phat writes:
Why did Jesus want us to follow Him? It seems easy for Gods Son to live the life of a homeless teacher. Its a bit like a son of wealthy parents deciding to hitchhike around the country following Phish.
The idea that God expects me to be loving and generous and yet gives me no power to do so leaves me asking someone...anyone...for advice. I simply dont feel inspired.
God did give you the power, and the great gift outlined in Genesis 2&3 where we gained the capability to know good from evil. Inspiration is irrelevant.
The reason is that we are our brothers keeper and are charged to try to make the world a little better.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 5:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 388 (611647)
04-09-2011 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
04-09-2011 4:50 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes:
What am I supposed to say? "Dear God, please forgive me for being selfish and unloving?"
You're not supposed to say anything. You're supposed to be less selfish and more loving.
Phat writes:
My point is that I am a failed attempt at a new birth...a new regeneration.
That's why regeneration has to be perpetual. You fail one day but you succeed the next.
Phat writes:
I can repent for my sin, but I dont know where to find the inner desire to change and become more generous.
If your sin is not being generous enough, the only way to repent is to be more generous.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 27 of 388 (611722)
04-10-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
04-09-2011 5:22 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
The idea that God expects me to be loving and generous and yet gives me no power to do so leaves me asking someone...anyone...for advice.
That's the problem - if you ask anyone for advice, then all the wrong people will give you the advice. But if you read the Gospel with a believing heart and look to God - pray to Christ, then, you can "do all things through Christ who strengthens you" (paraphrase).
Good works, kindness, love, all come from taking part in the divine nature, and we are asked to cast away the old man.
When you sow to the spirit, when you walk in the spirit, and when you seek to obey God, He empowers you.
Good works flow naturally when we follow Christ. But in the present phat, there are all kinds of empty secular and universal philosophies that just don't match with what the New Testament says.
Perhaps you need to read more about grace, the fruit of the spirit, and relying on God for all things.
But perhaps He is the last one you seek for advice? Rather than asking, vaguely, anyone for advice?
If I ask a lost person for advice - he will give me an answer according to the flesh. If I ask a spiritual person, born again, and having walked with God in experience and maturity for many years, He will teach me in the way everlasting.
I say a harsh thing to you phat - I ask a challenging question; when are you going to forget what others think - and ask the one Who can give you more than you could ever ask?
Oh but I forget, you're only an ape. Oh, but I forget, God might be a she. Or perhaps a brilliant design comes from some racemic amino-sludge.
Stop listening to nonsense and go back to the sound doctrine of the scriptures, and what Christ said. Listen to programs that will help you to understand those things.
It's only when you will take God at His word that He can help you. But if you ask for everybody elses words, that are based on heresy or atheism, then you will get answers that do not satisfy you.
Humble yourself before God, and ask Him. Look to Him - not the Gospel of Mary, Jane and Joe.
Phat - I say this in a way of encouragement, but men can't solve your problems. Let's face it, listening to the philosophies of the naturalists makes you look even more at sea than ever before. That is because spiritually, you are still on milk. You can't ask a fleshly mind for a spiritual answer.
If you want to eat stones, then go and eat stones. If you want fish - you go to the man with the fish, not the man with the stones, or you will break your teeth and swallow them, and then you will never chew any good food again.
But do you think it pleases God that you seek vague advice from people offering you stones to eat?
No offense, but you will go in circles forever unless you get on your knees and pray out to God.
A man preparing for a race does not expect to win that race by sitting in front of his TV. He expects that he must train to win that race. He does not go and ask a slob what he should do.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 5:22 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-10-2011 3:27 PM mike the wiz has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 28 of 388 (611725)
04-10-2011 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 2:14 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
mike the wiz writes:
If you want fish - blah blah blah....
If you want fish, go out and catch fish. Don't wait for God to drop them in your lap.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 2:14 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 4:59 PM ringo has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 29 of 388 (611728)
04-10-2011 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
04-10-2011 3:27 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
blah blah blah
Wow, what an enthralling refutation, but you could have atleast made it into a grammatical tautology that actually shown some originality, such as, Jack bull the Poppycock.
(Why the picture of Sharon Stone from the quick and the dead? It must be that film as it's 1995 and that fits. Is it because you like the film, or the character or the woman?) I would hazard a Sherlock that it's probably a mixture of the woman and the idea of a gunfighting-woman because you didn't generally show the film, but focussed on her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-10-2011 3:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-10-2011 6:25 PM mike the wiz has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 30 of 388 (611731)
04-10-2011 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 4:59 PM


Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
mike the wiz writes:
Wow, what an enthralling refutation....
You didn't say anything that required refutation. (See my signature.)
I was just suggesting that "Wish harder" isn't necessarily the best advice.
Edited by ringo, : Adjusted punctuation.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 4:59 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 7:13 PM ringo has replied

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