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Author Topic:   Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 256 of 301 (333092)
07-18-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by MangyTiger
07-18-2006 4:19 PM


Re: oh, great
Why would Israel need to do this?
You do know one of the reasons why Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israelis was to exhange for some of the thousands of Lebanse that Israel has held prisoner for years?
Hey, Syria holds Lebanese prisoners too...did they get attacked?
There are two answers to another nation holding your citizens captive, you can try to reach a diplomatic settlement or you can go to war to force the enemy to do what you want. Hezbollah is the one who chose to start this latest round of fighting.
Yes, Israel has made prisoner exchanges in the past, and sometimes did so as a result of hostage takings. However Israel is under no obligation to encourage such actions by continuing a policy of appeasement.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 07-18-2006 4:19 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 257 of 301 (333098)
07-18-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by PaulK
07-18-2006 4:22 PM


Re: oh, great
So it all started when he hit me back huh? There is a difference between taking hostages as bargaining chips and holding prisoners accused of criminal activities. One is a crime and the other is a practice that all civilized nations follow.
Israel holds no hostages to the best of my knowledge. It is their stated position that they only have people imprisoned for criminal activities. I'm not saying there's no abuse there mind you, but if Israel were holding hostages like Hezbollah, they would have started lining them up against the wall and shooting them every 15 minutes till the soldiers were returned.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2006 4:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 258 of 301 (333104)
07-18-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 8:51 PM


Re: disproportionate
I found myself believing that one of mine is worth more than all of theirs combined. If everyone thought that way the world would be a much safer place.
the problem with the world is that everyone already thinks that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 8:51 PM Wepwawet has not replied

SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 259 of 301 (333108)
07-18-2006 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 9:05 PM


Re: oh, great
So it all started when he hit me back huh? There is a difference between taking hostages as bargaining chips and holding prisoners accused of criminal activities. One is a crime and the other is a practice that all civilized nations follow.
Israel holds no hostages to the best of my knowledge. It is their stated position that they only have people imprisoned for criminal activities. I'm not saying there's no abuse there mind you, but if Israel were holding hostages like Hezbollah, they would have started lining them up against the wall and shooting them every 15 minutes till the soldiers were returned.
I'm glad to know that having an army makes one right.
Anyone remember how this country started? You know that group of terrorists back in the 1770s? They used to murder soldiers, hold soldiers prisoner, commit vandailsm, etc simply because they didn't like being part of england and thought they should have their own country.
I sometimes wonder if people actually know anything about history anymore

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:05 PM Wepwawet has not replied

Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 260 of 301 (333112)
07-18-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 8:51 PM


Re: disproportionate
Here's a nice editorial from the Monitor
Nice but firm countries finish first - CSMonitor.com
The part I found interesting was actually a simulation showing the strategy for political success.
A computer model even illustrated this lesson. Developed by The Santa Fe Institute, it was a digital fish tank. Users could introduce new life forms to observe whether their species thrived or died out among the other life forms. According to tech guru Winn Schwartau, each life form had a complex set of rules governing its behavior. Over time, wrote Schwartau, the life form that consistently dominated abided by the following rules:
"1. My species will always play nice with you. I will never be aggressive to you. We will make every attempt to cooperate and work with you and everyone in our (global) fish tank.
2. If you [mess] with me, I will annihilate you without any warning. Period."
That was written pre-9/11. Like Japan and Germany 60 years prior, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein discovered how seriously we take Rule #2.
And as long as we keep abiding by both rules, America, like the fish in the digital fish tank, will stay on top.
Has Israel been nice? Are they now just being firm? Or is it in fact a disproportionate response?
It's pro-America propaganda, so the examples are pretty much USA all-the-way. But that doesn't keep them from being examples.
Giving into bad guys' demands can have disastrous consequences. A famous example is when Great Britain acceded to Hitler's desire to usurp more territory in 1938, thinking that once his immediate demands were satisfied he would no longer be a threat. Britain's leaders were under the erroneous impression that bad guys could be dealt with solely through talks, diplomacy, and appeasement.
The United States can sometimes be too nice, too. In 1994 it signed an agreement with Pyongyang to allow North Korea limited nuclear-power generation in exchange for a freeze on its nuclear weapons program. As it turned out, North Korea did no such thing.
By and large, though, the United States combines niceness with toughness.
America is akin to a rich, successful, and happy person. Such a person is affable and receptive toward everyone he meets. Yet he is vigilant, too. Being rich, he's envied. There are people who don't like him just because of his good fortune or his outsized influence. Some wish to hurt him. For those people, he's firm. He plays hardball right back with them. And he doesn't give in to their demands.
America is willing to be friends with almost any country as long as that country is willing to be friends with America. And if that other country is not willing, America still holds out hope that someday it will change its mind.
During the cold war it was the Soviet Union that was the antagonist, not the US. Because the Soviets were ideologically against the American way of life, no amount of trying to befriend them would have worked. The only thing the US could do was be ever-prepared and ever-vigilant - make sure the Soviets see the weapon at America's side, while always having an olive branch stuck in its back pocket. After the Soviets finally shed their bad attitude, the US happily and readily presented them with that crumpled old olive branch.
A more recent example is Libya. In the wake of Saddam Hussein's ouster, Libya finally has realized that being cooperative with America, not antagonistic, is in its best interests. And the US couldn't be more pleased to welcome it into the community of civilized nations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 8:51 PM Wepwawet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:47 PM Iblis has not replied

SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 261 of 301 (333115)
07-18-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Iblis
07-18-2006 9:42 PM


Re: disproportionate
Interesting article... which has some merit.
"1. My species will always play nice with you. I will never be aggressive to you. We will make every attempt to cooperate and work with you and everyone in our (global) fish tank.
Unfortunately America does not even come close to following this rule. If you think we do you should have a talk with the inhabitants of central america.
I can't believe people actually think the US behaves like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Iblis, posted 07-18-2006 9:42 PM Iblis has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 262 of 301 (333118)
07-18-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 5:17 PM


Re: oh, great
depends on how you define "civilians." see, since most terrorists are not in official armed forces of recognized countries -- they are civilians.
Yep, and the "civilians" who are launching rockets and kidnapping soldiers are legally and morally required to wear distinctive uniforms to prevent just this sort of thing. So since we can't tell the difference between an innocent civilian and a Hezbollah terrorist, should we allow Hezbollah to act without fear of reprisal?
and, in case you hadn't noticed, they're now bombing suburbs. yes, hezbollah has a strong presence there -- but that's like bombing the ghetto to get rid of a gang.
The area being bombed is near the airport...only suburbs for the reason that airports aren't built downtown. It does not mean that Israel is targetting yuppie housing.
i think they're a country much like any other, and do not deserve special consideration and allowences when they step over the line.
I'm not sure I understand what line they've stepped over? You have to admit that the Israeli response is restrained, even if you think it's still too much. There is no wholesale slaughter of Lebanese citizens and considerable effort being expended to spare the citizens while targetting Hezbollah. What exactly do you expect of them short of rolling over and surrendering?
hezbollah is an official and elected party in lebanon. they are a major part of an alliance that controls all of southern lebanon.
True, but they are not all of the Lebanese government. The democratically elected Lebanese government is just as much of a target of this operation as Israel...perhaps moreso.
is full-blown war and military assualt, and bombings of areas heavily populated with civilians a justified response to two, count them, two kidnappings?
This is not yet a full-blown war and military assault, but it may become so. Rhetoric does not make it one.
So where's the line? How many people have to be killed and kidnapped to justify a military response against Hezbollah? Realize that there is no military response against them without endangering their human shields...that's why they hide behind them. You said two isn't enough...show me your math and tell me how many it takes.
faith accuses me of moral equivalence because i say that 200 dead is more serious of a misdeed than 2 kidnappings, or rather, because i think that dead arabs aren't worth less than dead jews. the kidnapped may or may not be alive -- but the 200 dead are dead. and that was this morning, before israel bombed residential areas. how many more are dead now?
200 dead is more serious than 2 kidnappings, but is it a misdeed? The Hezbollah border attack, killings and kidnapping were definitely a misdeed, but who are we to tell a sovreign nation that they are not allowed to defend their borders and protect their citizens? The onus falls on Hezbollah this time for initiating the violence and while the Israeli response could become brutally savage in effect, it is still an act of self-defense while their cities are under attack and their soldiers are held captive.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:17 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:54 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 264 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:23 PM Wepwawet has not replied

SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 263 of 301 (333120)
07-18-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 9:51 PM


Re: oh, great
200 dead is more serious than 2 kidnappings, but is it a misdeed? The Hezbollah border attack, killings and kidnapping were definitely a misdeed, but who are we to tell a sovreign nation that they are not allowed to defend their borders and protect their citizens? The onus falls on Hezbollah this time for initiating the violence and while the Israeli response could become brutally savage in effect, it is still an act of self-defense while their cities are under attack and their soldiers are held captive.
Who? Us? You mean the descendents of the terrorists that overthrew legitimate british sovereignty?
I hope you can see the irony
AbE: What exactly makes a state legitimate anyways? Would it be ok for Native Americans to rebel against the US as illegitimate conquerors? How about the scots againt the english? Was it ok for India to demand independence from england?
Edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:51 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 10:32 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 264 of 301 (333129)
07-18-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 9:51 PM


Re: oh, great
Yep, and the "civilians" who are launching rockets and kidnapping soldiers are legally and morally required to wear distinctive uniforms to prevent just this sort of thing. So since we can't tell the difference between an innocent civilian and a Hezbollah terrorist, should we allow Hezbollah to act without fear of reprisal?
this presumes two things.
1: that this is, in fact, not good strategy. nearest i can tell, war is generally evil and cut-throat. as our founding fathers knew, when they wore normal clothes and hid in the trees, the red-coats marching in formations were pretty easy targets. guess why we're a free country today?
2: that when people fight in a war, they only shoot at the guys who like soldiers. this is demonstratably not true, especially since bombs are not picky.
The area being bombed is near the airport...only suburbs for the reason that airports aren't built downtown. It does not mean that Israel is targetting yuppie housing.
no, as of this morning they are targetting residential subburbs, because hizballah has a very strong presence there. has little to do with the airport, more to do with where hizballah occupies.
I'm not sure I understand what line they've stepped over?
that's a hypothetical rhetorical device, although it probably applies here.
You have to admit that the Israeli response is restrained, even if you think it's still too much.
sounds like an oxymoron, but yes, i suppose you're right. they could be nuking lebanon. hurray, we're not in a nuclear war yet! is everything short of the worst possible scenario justified or restrained? how do you think people GET to the worst possible scenario?
There is no wholesale slaughter of Lebanese citizens
200 in a week. before bombings began this morning in residential areas. in a country smaller than new jersey.
and considerable effort being expended to spare the citizens while targetting Hezbollah.
yes, like bombing residential neighborhoods.
What exactly do you expect of them short of rolling over and surrendering?
anything but start a war in the middle east right now.
True, but they are not all of the Lebanese government. The democratically elected Lebanese government is just as much of a target of this operation as Israel...perhaps moreso.
much like republicans believe in downsizing government here, or making it ineffective? republicans aren't the only us government, and democrats are just as much a target as osama...
This is not yet a full-blown war and military assault, but it may become so. Rhetoric does not make it one.
what would you call it when one country bombs another for a week straight?
So where's the line? How many people have to be killed and kidnapped to justify a military response against Hezbollah? Realize that there is no military response against them without endangering their human shields...that's why they hide behind them. You said two isn't enough...show me your math and tell me how many it takes.
this course of action does not solve the problem; it makes it worse. it makes hizballah's claims seem justified, because israel is attacking lebanon and killing civilians. it does not destroy them: it makes them stronger. martyrdom helps their cause.
200 dead is more serious than 2 kidnappings, but is it a misdeed?
yes. murder is murder, no matter what country the victim is from.
The Hezbollah border attack, killings and kidnapping were definitely a misdeed, but who are we to tell a sovreign nation that they are not allowed to defend their borders and protect their citizens?
retaliation is not defense. it's revenge.
quote:
Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
quote:
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
quote:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
The onus falls on Hezbollah this time for initiating the violence and while the Israeli response could become brutally savage in effect, it is still an act of self-defense while their cities are under attack and their soldiers are held captive.
you will find that this does nothing but escalate the conflict. eventually, the solution will be anhilation of one party. since hizballah is already committed to destroying israel, can utterly anhilating hizballah and killing every last member be justified as neccessary for the self-defense of israel?
where do you draw the line?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:51 PM Wepwawet has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 265 of 301 (333132)
07-18-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 8:51 PM


Re: disproportionate
It's not a good answer is it? I spent four years in the Army and I found myself believing that one of mine is worth more than all of theirs combined. If everyone thought that way the world would be a much safer place.
yes, i agree. the world would be a lot safer is every human being on the planet were dead.
Hezbollah has it in their power to return the soldiers and get out of Southern Lebanon whenever they like.
republicans have the power to release the civilians held in gitmo and get out of american any time they like too. oh, wait, they don't want to? why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 8:51 PM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 266 of 301 (333134)
07-18-2006 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-18-2006 9:54 PM


Re: oh, great
Who? Us? You mean the descendents of the terrorists that overthrew legitimate british sovereignty?
You could have at least made the pretence of responding to my post instead of going off on your American Revolution analogy again. It doesn't hold up and even if it did it makes not a bit of difference.
Lebanon and Israel are not in the same situation. They are both sovreign states that were at peace until a faction of one country launched an unprovoked attack on the other. Was kidnapping the 2 soldiers (not to mention killing three others) a misdeed?

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:54 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 11:00 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 11:01 PM Wepwawet has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 267 of 301 (333139)
07-18-2006 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 10:32 PM


Re: oh, great
Lebanon and Israel are not in the same situation. They are both sovreign states that were at peace until a faction of one country launched an unprovoked attack on the other.
i believe if you ask hizballah, they sould say they kidnapped israeli soldiers as retaliation for their soldiers being kidnapped.
it's the middle east. we're dealing with retaliation for retaliation for retaliation... going back a very, very long time.
Edited by arachnophilia, : really bad typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 10:32 PM Wepwawet has not replied

SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 268 of 301 (333140)
07-18-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 10:32 PM


Re: oh, great
You could have at least made the pretence of responding to my post instead of going off on your American Revolution analogy again. It doesn't hold up and even if it did it makes not a bit of difference.
Lebanon and Israel are not in the same situation. They are both sovreign states that were at peace until a faction of one country launched an unprovoked attack on the other. Was kidnapping the 2 soldiers (not to mention killing three others) a misdeed?
I'm sorry you don't understand the analogy...,.. the fact that you don't think it makes a difference is pretty telling.
Who are the terrorists? Who is legitimate? It really all depends on your point of view.
What makes the americans revolutionaries of the 1770s more legitimate than the palenstinians today? How about the IRA? More or less legitimate than the palestinians?
Do you know anything about the history of how israel became a country?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 10:32 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 12:19 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 269 of 301 (333162)
07-19-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-18-2006 11:01 PM


Re: oh, great
I'm sorry you don't understand the analogy...,.. the fact that you don't think it makes a difference is pretty telling.
Then please explain in your wisdom exactly how an analogy of the American Revolution makes a difference in how we view the Middle East? And please keep your thinly veiled ad-homs to yourself, I've done nothing more than disagree with you.
Who are the terrorists? Who is legitimate? It really all depends on your point of view.
Precisely so. And my point of view is that a democratically elected government responding to an attack should have an advantage, moral opinion wise, over the quasi-government hate group that hijacked their own nation and instigated the attack at the behest of their Syrian and Iranian masters.
What makes the americans revolutionaries of the 1770s more legitimate than the palenstinians today? How about the IRA? More or less legitimate than the palestinians?
Ahhh...Palestinians now. I see your goal posts have shifted. Still it's nothing but smoke...what does legitimacy have to do with this struggle? I'll address the difference though: The Americans and Irish did not want to destroy Great Britain, whereas the Palestinians have the desire to destroy Israel utterly, they only lack the means to do so. That's where Palestinian legitimacy falls flat on its ass. Israel, on the other hand, has the means to destroy the Palestinians so the only reason the Palestinians still exist is that the Israelis do not desire their destruction. Selah.
Do you know anything about the history of how israel became a country?
Yes. It's a big ol' mess over there. We're all breathless waiting for you to tell us how to fix it.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 11:01 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:45 AM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 273 by Nighttrain, posted 07-19-2006 9:58 AM Wepwawet has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 270 of 301 (333168)
07-19-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Wepwawet
07-19-2006 12:19 AM


Re: oh, great
And my point of view is that a democratically elected government responding to an attack should have an advantage, moral opinion wise, over the quasi-government hate group that hijacked their own nation and instigated the attack at the behest of their Syrian and Iranian masters.
you are aware that hizballah is the main party in a democratically elected alliance control of southern lebanon, right? that's not quasi-government, that IS government.
personally, a lot of us feel that bush and co hijacked our country. but if china starts bombing us, we're not gonna say "thank you." in fact, we'd probably support bush in bombing the hell out of them in return.
Ahhh...Palestinians now. I see your goal posts have shifted.
israel is fighting a two-front war.
Selah.
?—
? —


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 12:19 AM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 6:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

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