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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 31 of 300 (334183)
07-22-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 12:14 AM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles,
Yes the Israeli military claims the civillian deaths were an accident, and I'm to believe them without question? Their current heavey handed bull in a china shop approach to the Hezbollah problem does not lead me to give them the benefit of doubt. They have some of the most capable, and experienced millitaries and intellegence services in the world and this is their strategy? They could have found a way to deal with Hezbollah without so many civillian casualties, this is just the new guy in charge wipping it out so everyone can see how big of a wang he has.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by inkorrekt, posted 07-22-2006 6:35 PM DrJones* has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 300 (334191)
07-22-2006 12:53 AM


Re: Hezbollah's tactics
Btw, Hezbollah does fire many of these rockets from vehicles. Likely the ambulance hit was a similar situation in heavy moving traffic. The terrorist missile would launch and the incoming missile response would hit whatever happless vehicle happened to be at the spot by the time the responding missile came in. Hezbollah terrorists have absolutely no regard for civilian casualties so long as it advances their evil agenda, to turn the world against Israel and the US and advance Islamic global conquest as per the Quran, the Haddith and the Saunas. This all, of course, in the name of their god, Allah.
Israeli's who fire the responding missiles, of course are not aware of whether the Ketusyahs were fired from an open field, a moving vehicle, a home or what. They can't just stop responding and let the enemy do all the damage. THEY MUST WIN OR ALL DIE as per the Islamic nations working to destroy them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 33 of 300 (334192)
07-22-2006 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 12:22 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
You better study up on the Israelli missile tech, MT. Ny understanding is that they are capable of and do pinpoint the very spot from which the enemy missile was fired from and if so, that spot had to be the convoy.
Like I said, you need to work on your comprehension skills.
The Israelis did not say they targeted the convoy because a missile was fired from it. Here's the quote again from your own source:
The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles
There is no indication whatsoever that the attack on the convoy was in response to a specific missile launch.
I further pointed out to you that you can't fire Katyushas from a moving vehicle. Even the videos released by the Israeli military confirm this - every one shows a stationary launcher being hit.
You better study up on the Israelli missile tech, MT.
Ahead of you on that one buz, even though your claims have already been shown to be total nonsense. From the same Baltimore Sun article I quoted in the last post:
Israel uses counter-battery radar that can locate the launch site by analyzing the trajectory of an incoming rocket.
Israeli aircraft and unmanned drones search for the telltale flash of a missile launch, but such efforts are often stymied by Hezbollah's practice of setting up a primitive launcher, connecting a car battery and a timer, and leaving the rocket to launch on its own.
"I suspect that's how many of them are fired, because anyone standing near a launch site two minutes later will get all sorts of Israeli artillery on their head," Isby said.
If they're using counter-battery radar then it will identify the launch spot - but the convoy will have moved from there by the time retaliatory fire hits it and so nothing will get hit.
If they're using aircraft to spot the launch flash then they will see and target the launch vehicle, not the civilian convoy.
But like I said, this is all academic because you can't fire Katyushas from a moving vehicle. It does, however, show that not only are you making shit up as you go along you aren't even thinking through the consequences of it before you post.
Ny understanding is that they are capable of and do pinpoint the very spot from which the enemy missile was fired from and if so, that spot had to be the convoy.
I've just realised in re-readng this that you might be thinking that the Israelis are only hitting confirmed launch sites/vehicles. That is most definitely not the case. They are hitting anything that they think might be a launcher or even just carrying ordnance.
From the Radio Netherlands website:
Arjan El Fassad, who works for aid charity Oxfam, says the work of getting aid to those who need it is proving to be a major problem:
"There is enough food and drink in the country, the only problem is how to get it to the right place. Even lorries loaded with goods are at risk. If anything even vaguely resembles a rocket launcher, it will be hit. Really,it will only be possible to reach the people if there's a cease fire."

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 8:57 AM MangyTiger has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 34 of 300 (334197)
07-22-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 12:14 AM


Tactics
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
So let's get this straight, you know about this tactic. Hezbollah know about this tactic. But the IDF are ignorant of it? I don't think so. The IDF know very well that by the time the artillery attack comes in, Hezbollah are likely to be long gone. Did the IDF confirm the target was a hostile before attacking? Or did they fire deadly weapons at a certain area without checking there'd be a medical convoy coming through?
It would be very easy for Hezbollah to set up a missile strike just ahead of a convoy - fire the missiles and get the hell out of there. Timed just right so the retaliation comes just as the convoy arrives. Blown up medical convoy, Geneva convention broken, everyone hates Israel, score for Hezbollah.
Do you consider the IDF stupid enough to fall for that glaringly obvious tactic? Their precision retaliations are only good as long as the enemy hasn't got a counter tactic - and there has been one for a long time (make sure you aren't near the attack site).
Looks to me like Hezbollah has been underestimated and have exploited the Israeli's aggression and rapid indiscriminate (ie without double checking the target area) response .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 6:48 AM Modulous has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 35 of 300 (334206)
07-22-2006 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
07-22-2006 2:31 AM


Re: Tactics
As I have been trying to get across to buz the basic premise of his scenario is flawed.
Hezbollah could not have fired a rocket from that convoy and then got safely ahead of the civilians. Katyushas are fired from stationary launchers.
Quite apart from that he has totally invented the idea that there was a missile launched from the convoy at all. I'm going to repeat this so anyone glancing through these posts can't miss it:
buz made up the idea that a missile was launched from the convoy. There is no support for this claim at all.
This is from Message 29 that you were replying to:
buz still making it up as he goes along writes:
Evidently you did not read my message 22 and the link to it stating that the Israeli rocket targeted the convoy because a missile had been fired from it.
Then he goes on to quote from the International Herald Tribune:
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, (embolding mine) and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k
The key words are contained within the section buz bolded - he just bolded too many:
The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles
The Israelis are not saying a missile was fired from the convoy, just some missiles had been fired from in the area. Nobody, anywhere, except buz, is claiming that the attack on the convoy was in response to a specific missile launch against Israel.
Just to finally show how little actual investigation he has done he makes this comment:
As per usual the Western liberal press failed to tell the Israeli story. I had to go to a Mid East and North Africa news source to get it.
He didn't notice the byline attached to the story:
Greg Myre The New York Times
The International Herald Tribune is part of the New York Times group and a variant of this story appears to have been in the NYT (you have to register to see it but if you dig around a bit you can get it for free in NYT owned papers in Florida and Alabama).
Looks to me like Hezbollah has been underestimated and have exploited the Israeli's aggression and rapid indiscriminate (ie without double checking the target area) response
Everything I've read suggests it is simply that Israel regards anything that looks like it might be a launch vehicle or carrying weapons as legimate targets. In fact I've just discovered Israel has recently become quite open that this is their policy (this is from Reuters but the same info is on most of the news sources):
Through leaflets dropped by aircraft, radio broadcasts and a recorded message to mobile phones, residents were advised not to travel on motorcycles or in vans or trucks lest they be "suspected of transporting weapons and rockets," and become "a potential target."
These leaflets have been only dropped in the last few days, but at least Israel is now open about what it is doing.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2006 2:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2006 7:57 AM MangyTiger has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 36 of 300 (334209)
07-22-2006 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Not at all like. The Israelis don't TARGET civilians. The operative word is TARGET.
Sometimes the "civilians" aren't civilians but made to appear so by the terrorists; often the civilians were put in harm's way by the terrorists; otherwise, despite the best aimed weapons and the best intentions, mistakes are always made and people get hurt. But the terrorists TARGET civilians.
The operative word being "target."
You don't "target" a few people by bombing a whole group, hoping to hit those few who may have launched the attack. Saying that you were "targeting" an individual or a group is a way to weasel out of responsibility for killing everyone in the building or convoy or what have you.
This is the reason that the "human shield" strategy works. Because one side has precision bombing, they feel justified in bombing a building to "target" a few people and the leftovers are "collateral damage" and must have been the enemy's fault.
If the "right side" knows precisely where someone is or where an attack came from they should be able to pinpoint and take them out individually. Being able to take them out (possibly) does not justify killing people who had nothing to do with it, no matter who is to blame for the innocents being in harm's way. (Of course, this goes either way, depending on the definition of "innocents").
We use terms such as "precision bombing" and "targeted response" to avoid the reality.
In my eyes, cowardice means pushing a button not knowing or even caring who that button kills.
Targeting civilians bears a great responsibility when you say, "well every civilian is a target because they disguise themselves as such" because, as a "civilized" people, you then have to bear witness to the acts you wish to perpetrate. If you say that some emergency vehicles carry weapons, the burden is on you to watch every single ambulance and target those which are proven to carry weapons, because those which are not are probably carrying civilian war casualties, (which as a "legitimate fighting power" you do not wish to cause and do not wish to exacerbate), civilians hurt from non-war inflicted injuries, women having babies, children suffering from some disease, etc,. Who knows? A civilized nation would not target medical/emergency vehicles, not knowing what the hell was going on.
If you say that one "so and so" member lives in this building, you have to go after that person, not say, "well we killed 200 women and children in the process, but "WE GOT HIM!"
If a group of three people shoot a missile from a location, you can almost guarantee that they are not there when your receiving missile lands, so why do it at all? Why shoot on civilians?
I realize that warfare has changed, indeed, every time a war is fought, but stooping to the "enemy's" level only degrades those fighting. And those fighting rarely call the shots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 1:01 AM Jaderis has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 37 of 300 (334216)
07-22-2006 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 6:48 AM


Re: Tactics
Hezbollah could not have fired a rocket from that convoy and then got safely ahead of the civilians. Katyushas are fired from stationary launchers.
I never said that Hezbollah fired the rocket from the convoy. I said the opposite:
quote:
It would be very easy for Hezbollah to set up a missile strike just ahead of a convoy - fire the missiles and get the hell out of there. Timed just right so the retaliation comes just as the convoy arrives. Blown up medical convoy, Geneva convention broken, everyone hates Israel, score for Hezbollah.
The have a stationary vehicle ahead of the known arrival time of the convoy. They fire missiles x minutes before convoy arrives from their stationary position. They get the hell out of there. The convoy arrives at the same time as the airstrike and BOOM! Israel get to be the bad guys. Israel can also say 'but we detected a missile launch in that area', and lead people to think that the covoy was firing missiles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 6:48 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 11:07 AM Modulous has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 300 (334230)
07-22-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 1:28 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
I further pointed out to you that you can't fire Katyushas from a moving vehicle. Even the videos released by the Israeli military confirm this - every one shows a stationary launcher being hit.
All they would need do is stop the vehicle long enough to fire and move on.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 1:28 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 07-22-2006 9:07 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 45 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 11:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 300 (334233)
07-22-2006 9:06 AM


Mangy, I also pointed out that Israel does not know from where the rocket was fired. Only the responding missle will seek that out and it had to be the spot from where the terrorist missile came. Right? Heading out to church now. All I want is the truth and to arrive at that we debate it out, so don't loose your cool. If you show me to be in error in the end, I'll admit it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:02 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-22-2006 12:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 40 of 300 (334235)
07-22-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 8:57 AM


What you think?
Hi Buz,
Do you think the Israeli army havr been ruthless cowards because they used Palestinian civilians as human shields as per the report from Amnesty International?
I'd appreciate an answer when you have the time.
Thanks.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 8:57 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 07-23-2006 10:30 PM Brian has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 300 (334248)
07-22-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:40 AM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
The idea that Israel would commit such a violation at all, and especially considering their position in public opinion, is absurd.
Sigh... once again, Faith, the fact that you're an Israel partisan is not evidence that Israel is incapable of committing a war crime.
Where is your evidence please?
The smoking ruin of the ambulances and the eyewitnesses. What's your evidence? The fact that Israel bombed an ambulance is not evidence that the ambulance was carrying weapons. It was an aid mission for the United Arab Emerates. Is it your contention that the UAE is supplying military aid to Hizballah? Based on what evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:40 AM Faith has not replied

SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 42 of 300 (334250)
07-22-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 12:22 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
You better study up on the Israelli missile tech, MT. Ny understanding is that they are capable of and do pinpoint the very spot from which the enemy missile was fired from and if so, that spot had to be the convoy. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I will be off to church tomorrow (Sabbath) and Lord willing able to do more responding tomorrow PM.
Buz, as someone who has at times made it a bit of a hobby to study military hardware I can tell that mangytiger is 100% correct.
Those older russian ballistic rockets just can't be fired on the move. They take a decent amount of time to set up and can only be fired from a stationary position.
The katayusha is an old design...... I believe it was originally used (at least in some form) in WW2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 10:50 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 6:32 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 43 of 300 (334254)
07-22-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-22-2006 10:12 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
The katayusha is an old design...... I believe it was originally used (at least in some form) in WW2
The Red Army used them extensively in WW2. They are often seen in documentaries (and some war films) - they were usually used in mass batteries and they made a distinctive (and unsettling) 'whooshing' noise as they were fired.
They were sometimes known by the nickname of "Stalin's Organ Pipes".

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-22-2006 10:12 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 44 of 300 (334258)
07-22-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Modulous
07-22-2006 7:57 AM


Re: Tactics
I never said that Hezbollah fired the rocket from the convoy
No, but that is what buz is claiming - but this all a sideshow.
The main point I've been trying to get across - and evidently failing dismally - is that there was no rocket launch connected to the attack on the convoy.
There is no suggestion anywhere in any news report I've seen on TV or read anywhere that the strike on the convoy was a 'hot response' to a launch against Israel. Even the Israelis aren't saying this.
I believe that buz is under the mistaken impression that Israel is only hitting vehicles in direct response to a launch. This has led him to conclude that if the convoy was hit there must have been a missile launch.
So to reiterate and hopefully make myself clear this time - other than buz saying so there is no suggestion from anyone (including the Israeli military) that the attack on the convoy was in direct response to a specific rocket launch.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2006 7:57 AM Modulous has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 45 of 300 (334262)
07-22-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
07-22-2006 8:57 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
All they would need do is stop the vehicle long enough to fire and move on.
Back in Message 28 I posted this from a Baltimore Sun article:
Most variants of the Katyusha can be set up and fired in less than an hour, said John Pike, a military technology expert at GlobalSecurity, a Web-based defense research organization.
So 'long enough to fire and move on' is somewhere between half an hour and an hour (on the basis that if it was less than 30 mins. the article would say 'less than half an hour' rather than 'less than an hour').
It's not that quick a job.
Edited by MangyTiger, : Added a missing 'an'.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 8:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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