Divinity of Jesus

you see, this is where it gets too complicated for me...how can Jesus be 'with' God and 'be' God at the same time?Its never made any sense to me which is partly why the JW doctrine is so appealing. Its straightforward, logical and easy to comprehend.Jesus was a son of God as the bible says. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

The problem with your reply is that you don't believe the Bible is God's truth. When Scripture is given that reveals the divinity of Jesus, it is ignored, such as John 1:1-14, John 10:30 and Phil 2:5-11.These verses also confirm Acts 2:32-38, One can be a Christian in name, but to be a true Christian in relationship, one must be "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7. When one does this, one enters into relationship with the Lord Jesus as revealed in Heb 1:1-4.If others want to believe in a Jesus who is the brother of Satan, that is your choice. But a Jesus who is the brother of Satan can never forgive you of your sins, nor does he sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord.Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This can get a little tricky. The body I have today is not the body I had last week because of cell replacement. So to this concept I have to give a cautious " It was virtually the same body. "At least the scares that were put on the His body at the time of crucifixion were still visible when He presented Himself to Thomas for empirical proof that it was He Himself. This was Christ's accomodating the challenge of Thomas spoken to the other disciples: I don't think I will put forth a theory that it was a different body but the same scares. It was virtually the same body with the same scares even though it was miraculously a glorified body.I'll get to "a glorified body" latter hopefully. Hold on here. I agree that Christ's resurrected body had unusual capabilities. He miraculously appeared in a room which was locked. And He vanished from the sight of those disciples with whom He was walking down to Emmaus.But it is also true that He ate fish before them to prove that His body in resurrection was physical. Whatever "a life giving Spirit" meant in Paul's mind, it did not mean that Christ was so spiritual that He could not be recognized as to Himself, His physical wounds, and His physical ability to eat broiled fish.Since it is the Holy Spirit who gives the divine life to man -"It is the Spirit that gives life ..." (John 6:63) " ... for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor.3:6) " ... the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:2)first Corinthians 15:45 must mean that Christ became the Holy Spirit Who gives divine life and is "the Spirit of life" - divine [zoe] life.The Spirit of God is eternal - "the eternal Spirit" (Hebrews 9:14). But the incarnation of Jesus and His resurrection happened in time. I should be that what God was in the born, incarnated, crucified and resurrected man, was compounded into the eternal Spirit. He brought His earthly experience into the eternal Spirit and "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit".He deified His humanity. He uplifted His human experience into the eternal Spirit. And He did this in order to convey divine life as a God-man into people. Jesus Christ then, in His entire human sojourn and experience becomes available to blend with man.Life giving in 1 Corinthians 15:45 really means Christ giving and God giving. For He says that He IS the life: The Uncreated Life which is God Himself, the eternal life, the Life which had no beginning and always was, the life responsible for the creation of the universe and all other lives, came embodied as the Man Jesus of Nazareth. He died a redemptive death, rose again in a victorious resurrection and uplifted His humanity that He had clothed Himself in into the eternal Spirit that the God man Jesus could be imparted into man.Fallen man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph 4:18)Jesus is God incarnate to dispense this life of God into redeemed sinners. For this in resurrection "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"I have given as good of an explanation I can. And I admit that some of these alludes "systematic" theology. But I am helped to understand 1 Cor. 15:45 is the concept that in incarnation Christ brought God into humanity. But in resurrection He brought humanity into God. He uplifted what He had clothed Himself in and suffered in into the eternal Spirit that He in His human experience could be imparted into man making the life of Jesus available to man. It doesn't say how the disciples were kept from recognizing Him. It is possible that He looked different. But this fact has little to do with Him becoming the God coveying, Christ conveying, and divine life conveying life giving Spirit.Jehovah's Witnesses remain always in the objective realm. It all is above and outside of man. It is like Islam or Judaism or even degraded Chrsitianity. All that God is is objective.The New Testament however has more than just an objective side. It has the crucial side of dispensing Christ INTO man to be his life. That is to make His people mingled with God. This is mingling. This is blending. This is the eternal Spirit of God intertwined with the human spirit of forgiven sinners. The TWO spirits - the eternal Spirit Who is God and the created human spirit, can become ONE SPIRIT. That is united and blended within man's innermost being."The Spirit of God" equals "the Spirit of Christ" yet Who equals "Christ" yet further equals "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead".The labels are used interchangeably and seamlessly by Paul. And it is taken for granted that the Christians cannot detect any separation between them: Today, Christ is not only physically resurrected, not only in a glorified body but He is available to enter into man to be "one spirit" with man's spirit as:"The Spirit of God,
The Spirit of Christ,
Christ,
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"So Paul locate Christ in TWO places in Romans 8. He is "at the right hand of God" (v.34) and He is "Christ ... in you" (v.10)This is possible today because " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) . I have to take both truths and not use one to annul the other. He presented His physical body to His disciples. I have to also take that in order to impart Himself as life into man, making what He is available to man: I cannot be myopic about this. I cannot be lopsided about this. I have to embrace the complete revelation of the New Testament.Over a period of forty days after His resurrection Jesus was training His disciples. This training concerning the kingdom of God included the crucial truth that though they could not see Him He was still with them. He was in them. He was with them forever. And He trianed them by appearing and vanishing from their sight, that though now they could not always see Him, He was still with them.They were well trained. And they became the stellar witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus in the face of intense persecution because they had been well trained. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If you believe Jesus is not a created being, has always existed in the eternal Godhead, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as Lord, then you are the first JW I know that believes as you do.

Here John10:10, I think we have to be careful.Christ became a man.Man is an item of God's creation (Genesis 1:27 - "God created man") .In our zeal to stress that Christ is God we have to be careful that we do not undercut the revelation that God became a man. So we have to say that Christ is the eternal God and the CREATED man.The Word who was God became flesh. Without a doubt flesh is an item of God's creation. So in Christ the Creator and the creation are mingled as one.Forgive me if I stress something that you realize. But I have seen many Christians fall into a trap. By being strong to proclaim that Christ is God the eternal they have to be careful not to deny the incarnation. "The Word became flesh"The creation and the Creator are mingled together in Jesus Christ.I think elsewhere I told Peg and other JWs that when we Christians say that Jesus Christ is God we do not mean that He is not also a man. And God created man (Genesis 1:27).As to whether Peg believes that Christ is eternal, it is possible that genuine Christians may inadvertently end up in a cult such as JWs.I too would be surprised if Peg believes that Christ is eternal. A strong teaching of Arianism is that He is an angel created by God as the first item of all created items.She would probably be the first I ever met who didn't accept Russell's polytheism of a created god. Let's see if she clarifies her stand.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Working in a Catholic School and knowing what it really means to be a Christian are two different things.A Christian is one who speaks the truth in love to sinners who are lost and separated from God. If you perceive this as hate, maybe it's because you think there is no God, or that there is no such thing as being lost and separated from God.

Jaywill,You must understand that you are speaking mostly to unbelievers on this forum. As such, unbelievers love to debate what they think the Bible says. If they don't like what the Bible says, then they make up their own Bible, as do the JW's.Yes, Christ intered into the creation He made and became as a man. The human part of Christ came from His mother Mary, but the divine part always existed in the Godhead and became as a man, was not created. Words and their meaning are very important, and what cults do is take the words of the Bible and give them different meanings.

I understand that God has been declared through Christ, but how does this translate into, Christ is God?Also, I used Galatians 3:19 "Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.because it shows that the understanding was that the Mosaic Law was transmitted to Moses, not by God, but by Angels.
And not only the Law code but also 'the word' of Jehovah for at Hebrews 2:2 it says "For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm..."So the 'Word' is more then just the 'law code'...it has to be all of what is attributed to God himself in the Hebrew scriptures.that means its must include the dialogue in the garden of Eden, it must include the dialogue between Noah/Abraham/Jacob/Isaac and the dialogue between God and the prophets and the kings.But there is more evidence that gives a clear picture of exactly what Jesus role as 'The Word' entails and the explaination is given in Hebrews by Paul. He explains how Jesus was prefigured by Aaron the highpreist and Moses mouthpiece.

quote:

---

Hebrews 5:5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf of men over the things pertaining to God,...
4Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also was.

​

5So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by him who spoke with reference to him: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father".

---

Now Aaron was unique in that he was the first high priest appointed by God and Jesus was the 2nd as Paul shows above...'God glorified him' into that position.
So how this relates to Jesus as the word is shown in the 2 verses below concerning Aarons appointment as Moses mouthpiece.
____________________________________________________________
Exodus 4:15"And you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I myself shall prove to be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach YOU men what YOU are to do. 16And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him"

​

Exodus 7:1-2 "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. 2 Youyou will speak all that I shall command you; and Aaron your brother will do the speaking to Pharaoh
_________________________________________________________Like Aaron, who spoke for Moses, Jesus spoke for God. Its that simple.
This is why John called him 'the word'
Jesus was the Angle of Jehovah, the one who carried the name of God, the angel who led the isrealites through the wilderness, the one who God told us to Listen to at Matt 17:5 "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him."
____________________________________________________________________
John 20:30, 31. "But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."
________________________________________________________________So in all the dialogue of the Hebrew scriptures, Jesus was Gods mouthpiece. He was the foremost angel and he still is the foremost angel. He cannot be God because as Paul shows, it was God who chose him, and it was God who promoted him to the position he's in.If Jesus was God, then Jesus promoted himself to the position he's in and nothing that the apostle John says about him makes any sense. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Interesting. I will go back and finish it. Gary has an unusual translation of John 20:17 which at present I have never heard. He says Jesus said "Stop clinging to me".The Recovery Version reads: I am not sure I agree with Gary that Mary touched Jesus at the garden after His resurrection. Jesus told her NOT to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father.I think that Jesus wanted to Father to be the first to enjoy the resurrection of the Son in deepest affection. But this causes some a problem. He publically ascends to the heaven forty some days latter. And in between that time He was handled.So some of us believe that He had a secret ascension to the heaven that day of His resurrection and returned to the earth in the evening to appear to His disciples. The Father had to be the first to affectionately enjoy His resurrected body.I don't know what that specifically means in heaven in a physical sense. I do know that Jesus discouraged Mary from clinging to Him before He had first presented Himself to the Father.If the going back and forth to Heaven seems weird to anyone, it is also to me. But locating Jesus in the Gospels is kind of weird as witnessed in this saying:"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." (John 3:13) Exactly how Jesus goes back and forth to this realm of Heaven, and eactly where He thought of Himself as being when He spoke this word is hard for me to know.It is not impossible that before His public ascension (Luke 24:50-53, Acts 1:9-11) Jesus had a one day private ascension and returned in the evening (Compare John 20:1,17 and John 20:19). Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

im happy to clarify thatJesus is more then eternal, he is in fact 'Immortal' which means that he is indestructible and he does not depend on God Jehovah for life as we mortals do (angels included).But the scriptures show that he wasnt always immortal. Its clear that he was not immortal before his resurrection because to be 'immortal' means you cannot die, and we know Christ died. but Paul in 1Timothy 6:15-16 shows that Jesus alone had immortality...he was raised up in 'incorruption'
The greek word he used at Rom 2:7; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10 is aphtharsia and it is that which cannot decay or be corrupted... that which is imperishableSo, far more then just eternal, he is 'immortal'.The only other group who get immortality are those of Jesus brothers who join as being heirs in the Kingdom of Heaven. It is explained by Paul in 1 Corintians 15:52 that when they die, they too will receive immortality
"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortalityEdited by Peg, : No reason given.

a divine being does not mean that the being was never created.What does 'divine' mean to you?According to The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, the greek expression to theion (as found at Acts 17:29) comes from the adjective theios, meaning 'pertaining to God,' or 'divine.'Wouldnt this class the angels as 'divine'.The Holy Bible could probably be called 'divine' too.

You know that Angels had the capability of 'materializing' in a fleshly body. We have the accounts of the 3 angels who Abraham cooked a meal for as an example. We are even told the some angels put on material bodies and had sexual relations with women and produced offspring.(Genesis 6:2-4)
So the idea that Jesus, as a resurrected spirit, put on a material body is not out of the question, is it? do you really think he could have done that in a physical body?

There is really no need to translate it. John 1:1 has already told us that "the Word was God." Verse 14 says that "the Word became flesh." The Son in the bosom of the Father must be this Word who was God and who became flesh.But with Russell you will say that the God whom the Word WAS is a different God from the God whom the Word was WITH - Polytheism.My point is that for me, there is really no need to "translate" God being declared through Christ. But in Isaiah's prophecy the human "child ... born" is called "Mighty God" and the "Son ... given" is called "Eternal Father." So the theological "translation" is valid.John also underscores that the theological translation is valid by this question of Philip and the answer given by Jesus: Philip asks to finally be shown this Father. Jesus replies in essence that in all these three years Philip has not yet come to know Jesus. The "Me" ... "you have not known Me ...?" translates that God is seen through Christ and is Christ. In other words Jesus is the mingling of God and man. The two components are mingled together such, by definition, they are discernable in the combination. We see in Jesus the created man and the uncreated God. When you refer to the book of Hebrews I have to immediately bring your attention to the fact that:1.) The writer refers to the Son as God (Heb. 1:8)2.) The throne of this God, the Son is forever and not just 1,000 years (Heb. 1:8)3.) This Person, the Son (v.10) is equated to the Creator of Psalm 102.Please compare and ascertain the motive of the writer of the book of Hebrews: Is there any doubt that the writer of Hebrews intends to convey that the Son, with His kingdom "forever," Who is also called God, is the same Jehovah God of Psalm 103 ?I think there is no chance of misunderstanding the intent of the writer. You can only assume to know more than the writer and charge that writer with a theological mistake. That is absurd to me.Also, I repeat, Hebrews 1:4 through to 2:18 is a section of the Bible dedicated to explaining that the Son of God is superior to ANY and ALL angels.You continue: I count this reasoning as ignoring what Hebrews obviously says about the Son of God being God and not an angel, and obscuring it and contradicting it with a discussion in Galatians.I think that we should count that the more obvious intent of Hebrews takes precidence over the questionable application of Galatians 3 to passages in Hebrews.Your remarks comparing Aaron and Christ in respect of the priesthood, I would like to consider in a separate post.But first please tell me, in your understanding, WHEN did God beget this Son? What day in your mind is indicated by "THIS day I have begotten You"?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is why God is God and we are not. The GOD WHO IS has chosen reveal Himself to man in this manner thru the Old Covenant and New Covenant relationship as written by men of God inspired by God's Spirit to write Bible.How can Jesus be "with God" and "be God at the same time?" Because not only does Jesus declare this of Himself in the Bible, those inspired by God's Spirit declared this as well. Now you have two choices:(1) Either the Bible is true that declares this, and one finds out that it's true by repenting of one's sins, accepting this as God's truth, and then entering into the fulness of all that this gospel of Christ means for a "born again" Believer, or(2) one rejects this truth, or re-writes another gospel of Christ to say that Christ is a created being. The JW's have chosen the latter.

So you resolve the logical inconsistency of being oneself and simultaneously being one's own son by simply saying "that's what God said, and he's magic?"I suppose that since we're talking about an entity who is supposed to be unbound by such mundane things as "logic" and who uses magic all the time anyway, this isn't such a large problem.But still, it brings new meaning to the phrase "I'm beside myself!"It's interesting that the Bible in several places refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as distinct and separate entities. Do you have a specific Bible reference, John, to show where the Bible says we are to believe that the three entities referred to are also one entity?I can see very plainly where non-Trinity Christians get their beliefs from all of the references where Jesus refers to the Father or the Holy Spirit as separate individuals (saying that he'll sit at the right hand of the Father, or that blasphemies against the Son or the Father are forgivable but those against the Holy Spirit are unforgivable, etc). I don't easily see where the Trinity doctrine of bunching up those three entities into the "godhead" and considering them to be "manifestations" of the same, one God comes from. Could you elaborate,with Biblical references?After all, when you continually shout "this is what God and His inspired authors said," it would be far more helpful were you to actually post the references to scripture where you're reading that they said it. Otherwise it's rather like taking your word for it, and that's just poor debate style.