Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Big Rip theory
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 1 of 40 (291186)
03-01-2006 10:50 AM


Endless Void or Big Crunch: How Will the Universe End? | Space Here is a link to the theory about the big rip. I just want to see what others may think of it. It says implys that the universe including Earth is continue to increase its acceleration not just a constant acceleration or slowing down like you might think it should if the big bang happened the way it did. It also implys that it is not the appearance of acceleration between galaxys.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:11 PM kallcium has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 40 (291194)
03-01-2006 11:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 40 (291199)
03-01-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kallcium
03-01-2006 10:50 AM


Hello, kallcium.
I'm a bit surprised that this was promoted without some editing requests. I think it's a fine topic, but some of your phrasing is a bit unclear. So please be patient if I miss any points you might be trying to make.
-
quote:
It says implys that the universe including Earth is continue to increase its acceleration not just a constant acceleration or slowing down like you might think it should if the big bang happened the way it did.
Actually, what it implies is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, not like the way one would think if gravity were the only force that is acting. But there are no reasons to thing that the force of gravity is the only large range force relevant to the expansion of the universe -- it was simply the simplest (and most reasonable) assumption to make based on what we knew previously.
When Einstein first developed his General Theory of Relativity, he realized that his equations predicted a universe that was either expanding or contraction. Since at that time there was no evidence that the universe was anything other than static, he included ad hoc a term (the so called cosmological constant) to cancel out these effects so that a static universe would result.
Then it was discovered that the universe is expanding after all, so it was eliminated.
Now there is evidence that the rate of change of expansion is not what one would expect if the gravity were the sole determining factor. So people are reintroducing this cosmological constant to take this into account.
At any rate, Big Bang is really a description of the early universe based on the observation that universe is expanding, and so must have been smaller in the past. There is nothing about Big Bang itself that determines the rate of change of expansion; rather the expansion is taken as a given (based on GR, of course, and the other laws of physics as currently understood). It may be, though, that this new "Dark Energy" (as this new force is called) may lead to new physical insights, and may change certain aspects of our understanding of the early universe.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 10:50 AM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 4 of 40 (291203)
03-01-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
03-01-2006 12:11 PM


Well basicly according to the laws of conservation of energy and thermodynamics, energy can not be created and also energy that exists goes from a state of reduced entropy to a state of entropy (order to disorder)and one day there will be a state of maxium entropy or heat death (non usuable energy) So what is causing these galaxies to increase its acceleration, in my opinion it couldn't be the big bang because according to those laws the acceleration would stop and it would continue at a constant speed or constant acceleration unless acted apon by an outside force. Not increasing its acceleration like this article states. So as it bumped into other matter some might accelerate while others decelerate. Not all increasing its acceleration together.
Also one of my questions is that when I commented on galaxies more tha 3MLY away are moving faster at signifacnt fractions of the speed of light. I was told by crashfrog that it is only the apperance of acceleration not actual acceleration. According to this big rip theory that all matter will one day accelerate so fast that even the bonds on the atomic level will break apart. That doesn't sound like the "appearence" of acceleration. How could appearence of acceleration cause atomic bonds to break. It sounds to me that these galaxies are actually moving that fast.
This message has been edited by kallcium, 03-01-2006 12:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:11 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:40 PM kallcium has replied
 Message 7 by Modulous, posted 03-01-2006 12:44 PM kallcium has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 40 (291205)
03-01-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:31 PM


quote:
So what is causing these galaxies to increase its acceleration, in my opinion it couldn't be the big bang....
Well, no, it couldn't, bacause "Big Bang" is a description of the early universe, not a "cause".
What is "causing" this acceleration (if there is an acceleration; last I heard, it still needed confirmation) is a new scientific principle that was previously unknown.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:31 PM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 6 of 40 (291206)
03-01-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
03-01-2006 12:40 PM


Ok thanks. Thats what I thought. So out of curiousity what is this new scientific princable that is being theorized if indeed the galaxies are increcing their acceleration?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:40 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:48 PM kallcium has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 7 of 40 (291207)
03-01-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:31 PM


, in my opinion it couldn't be the big bang because according to those laws the acceleration would stop and it would continue at a constant speed or constant acceleration unless acted apon by an outside force
It sounds like you might think that the big bang was some kind of conventional (albeit cosmologically huge) explosion that obeys the laws of explosions. However, it is not an explosion but the inflation of space as time increases. Your thoughts about an outside force acting upon it is taken care of by dark energy.
Whether or not the big rip is our universe's fate depends on what the ratio between the dark energy pressure and its density. Its not quite so intuitive and straight forward unfortunately.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:31 PM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:48 PM Modulous has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 40 (291208)
03-01-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:43 PM


As far as I know, people are still working on it. All that is known is that some observations suggest that the expansion of the universe is acceleration.
One idea is that space itself will repulse itself, so as the universe expands you have more space that will casue and even greater accereration, that will lead to more space, and greater acceleration, and so forth....
Maybe our local cosmologists will have something to say once they notice this thread.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:43 PM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:49 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 9 of 40 (291209)
03-01-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Modulous
03-01-2006 12:44 PM


How does anyone know that the big bang is the way you described? To me it requires faith that it doesn't follow the the laws of physics. Very little is known about dark matter so it is hard to really say what it will do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Modulous, posted 03-01-2006 12:44 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:50 PM kallcium has replied
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 03-01-2006 12:55 PM kallcium has not replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 10 of 40 (291210)
03-01-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
03-01-2006 12:48 PM


Thanks Chiroptera, that is very interesting, I will have to research more about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:48 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 40 (291211)
03-01-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:48 PM


quote:
To me it requires faith that it doesn't follow the the laws of physics.
Indeed it would, which is why no one is saying that the early universe did not follow the laws of physics. In fact, what we think we understand about the early universe comes from applying the laws of physics (as we currently understand them) to the early universe.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:48 PM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:54 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 12 of 40 (291212)
03-01-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chiroptera
03-01-2006 12:50 PM


So in my conclusion, for me it takes faith to believe that God made the universe and caused it to accelerate the way it is, just is it requires an "equal and oppisite" faith the the big bang took care of that with the help of dark matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:50 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:57 PM kallcium has replied
 Message 18 by mark24, posted 03-01-2006 1:49 PM kallcium has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 13 of 40 (291213)
03-01-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:48 PM


How does anyone know that the big bang is the way you described?
The geometry of space/time is described very accurately by relativity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:48 PM kallcium has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 40 (291214)
03-01-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by kallcium
03-01-2006 12:54 PM


quote:
just is it requires an "equal and oppisite" faith the the big bang took care of that with the help of dark matter.
Well, actually, big bang is a description of the early universe -- it doesn't "take care" of anything, no more than other "descriptions" "take care" of things.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:54 PM kallcium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by kallcium, posted 03-01-2006 12:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
kallcium
Member (Idle past 5462 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 02-28-2006


Message 15 of 40 (291215)
03-01-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Chiroptera
03-01-2006 12:57 PM


ok fair enough

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 12:57 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2006 1:31 PM kallcium has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024