|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: A Question About Deception | |||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Schraf, Rand:
I see how these couple of posts are on the current topic. But they teeter on the edge of falling far from it. Please wrap this bit quickly or take it elsewhere. I could suggest this approach: Schraf, you can agree with Rand that God is totally unknowable and that we can have no clue what is good and evil from our inability to know. The fact that the Bible has a commandment about "baring false witness" can be ignored if you can allow someone to be mislead by simple setting a trap. If God is the source of right and wrong we learn by his use of such traps that it is ok. So maybe we have been fooled but it is ok to fool someone cause God does it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But do we or do we not possess the same Knowledge of Good and Evil as God?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
anglagard Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
[ABE - Posted after Admin warning, deleted]
Edited by anglagard, : provoking possible off-topic discussion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
We possess the knowledge of good and evil in the sense of having a conscience. We do not possess perfect reasoning, nor do we possess perfect knowledge of things and events, and so with imperfect reasoning and imperfect knowledge, we have flawed analysis in respect to God, and so insisting that because at some point with severely flawed analysis we misunderstand something, God has deceived us is flat out absurd.
You are equating the knowledge of good and evil with knowledge in general in this instance, and moreover, our knowledge of good and evil does not lead me, for example, to believe just because I have the ability to be honestly wrong, that somehow God has deceived me. it's not the knowledge of good and evil that leads you to accuse God of deception, but your own delusion. Just because God created a world that could be subjected to and is now subjected to sin and imperfection does not mean God deceives you, but if you read the gospels, you will find that Jesus often spoke at a higher level that people misunderstood. It's pretty clear God doesn't consider it deception to speak the truth, even knowing some will misinterpret it, and frankly, I don't consider it deception from God either. God is above us, and demanding He submit to our whims and insist He only communicate at our level and wipe away all mystery and confusion is not a moral stance, but an immoral one. With that said, how much further should we go with this topic considering admin's weighing in?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
What changed in the story was the Fall of man, which the Bible clearly indicates caused a change in the program, the nature of life on earth and the universe.
Also if this is the case then the world was simultaneously, created in six days, and is as old as science suggests, in which case why argue for a young earth? I don't argue for a young earth, but some do and they present physical arguments. Imo, the Bible does not indicate that the days of creation are 24 hour periods, but at the same time, if that was the case, the earth could still be very ancient and the 24 hour "day" idea be true. Certainly, relativity would lean to describing the earth as a streak through space-time rather than a ball in space in time, and it is quite possible there are causal events that affect the past from the present and future. The idea that the past is static is a mere assumption, one that I believe will be shown to be wrong.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, I guess we do not have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil according to you.
I guess Genesis has it wrong?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I suggest you reread your Bible a little more closely.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
It's plain to me that we do have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil if one reads Genesis plainly.
Otherwise, A&E wouldn't have been kicked out of Eden. They had already become as gods by eating of this tree and were very close to going all the way and becoming immortal if they also ate of the Tree of Life. Oh, and it says nothing in Genesis about the Fall causing humans to lose this ability. It does mention something about the pains of childbirth and the subjigation of Women to men, and also it mentions that the earth will be much harder to work to produce crops. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Rather than argue that point, I think you need to realize the Bible presents man as justifying his own sinfulness as well, and that life shows us that as well. I, for one, do not see the erroneous judgements of evos based on their own faulty analysis as evidence of God being deceptive and think your argument is quite bizarre to assert that. It's even more bizarre for evos to claim to understand the Fall and the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Certainly, men are born with a conscience to know good and evil. To suggest their perception is ever completely on par with God is rather silly.
To be "as one of us" does not mean man is equal to God in moral clarity and perception. it just means he knows the difference in good and evil. but even with that innate knowledge, man's mind has reason within it and reason that is often faulty, a good example being claiming that if something looks to an evo one way based on evos adopting prejudicial assumptions, that somehow this is all God's fault. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
without attempting to sound arrogant, I can tell the kind of stuff I can see truth and truisms within.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Shh Inactive Member |
a good example being claiming that if something looks to an evo one way based on evos adopting prejudicial assumptions, that somehow this is all God's fault.
No offense, but this theory opens up some vast problems imo.The story of the fall has always looked silly to me. God punishes Adam and Eve for breaking a rule. The rule is not to eat the fruit. Eating the fruit is an evil/sinful act, but without eating the fruit, they cannot understand this. Catch22? I thought so. Now, tho it appears that the eating of the fruit, which caused man's ability to commit evil, may have caused them to decide to eat the fruit in the first place.But it's even more nosensical than punishing them for becoming capable of understanding good and evil, which is a perrequisite of being good. Make any sense to you?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Is this specifically noted to be the case in Genesis, because I read it through several times and I cannot see this caveat. All I see is that A&E were banished from Eden for eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because God was worried that they were half way to becoming Gods themselves. All they had left to do to become as Gods was to eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
That is a bad analogy. It would take much more work to put the proper ratios, and all the little details to 'age' the earth. That is everything from the sedement layers, to the glaciers, to the radiometric dating, and other various items.
The only conclusion I personally draw is that it isn't that God deceived man about the age of the earth.. but man deceived himself by declaring that god made a young earth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
And I suggest that you do, particualry the book of Genesis.
I would also suggest you read it with a good Jewish commentary. The items you claim are in there are not in there at all, if you look at it from a Hebrew perspective. As a matter of fact, the entire story of Adam and Eve has so much puns and political commnetary in it, it is obvious it is not really history at all. It also says nothing about the age of the world. That is something that was read INTO it, rather than something that was inherent to the story.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
without attempting to sound arrogant, I can tell the kind of stuff I can see truth and truisms within. You don't sound arrogant to me, however, I want to point out that you are the one who consistently dismisses human knowing as fallible and yet in this statement you are basing your decisions on your human abililty to recognize truth and truisms. Have you read anything Ramana had to say? lfen
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024