Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

(still being edited)I hope to create an engaging discussion among posters.Im going to leave this post blank so I can come back and edit a table of contents type of post to keep things orderly.ISSUE #1 (posts 212-213)My first post(s) are going to cover the Jewish view of Ezekiel 35-40 during the period just after the Islamic Liberation of Palestine in 638 AD.First I will lay a little historical groundwork.(coming)EDIT: I havnt had the time I needed today, but will try and get a little something done, but will have to finish another day.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Are you nuts, or do you just play a nutcase on the internet?

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

But here I cant get the old link to work but this was accessed jan 1 2007 athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f3aRnkgOWsAlso see.NOTEdeleted link because its messed screen up (edited around 4 hours after post was made)I ask you to please provide a substantive objection to my posts however.I really dont know how (or what exactly) to respond when you throw cheap and vague insults.The world didnt end in 1988 when the "40 year generation" was the standard.Then it became "2000-2005" once the standard was 1967.Now we are up to a "51.4" year generation.(As for statement about only 144,000 Jews surviving, that is a dispensationalist interpretation of Revelation.Tim LaHaye only thinks 2/3s of all Jews will die so I suppose nearly 5 million Jews are allowed to survive in his prophecy driven fantasy)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I think I provided an adequate response to your previous post. Your most recent post is even nuttier.You might consider staying at a Holiday Inn Express.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Nobody is forcing you to use a URL which leads you to a discussion on the prophecy views of over 100 million Americans (ie dispensationalism).It is also somewhat of a political discussion because dispensationalists arent mere spectators but they feel the need to drive prophecy toward its completion.If you find a discussion-centered around a major force in our world today-boring then fine.Good luck in pulling the gun from your head;I sure hope the trigger isnt pulled simply because you are leaving a topic you find boring.

I don't think I need to explain why I'm responding in an Admin role. However, to make sure there is no confusion:

quote:

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Keep discussion civil and avoid inflammatory behavior that might distract attention from the topic. Argue the position, not the person.

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Jews were prevented from entering Jerusalem during the entire Christian period (post 300AD) until the Persians briefly took Jerusalem in 614. Then, near the end of the Byzantium period, there is some possible evidence of a few Jews in Jerusalem. Then on p 786 Meir Ben-Dov talks about the "Tumultuous events" of the early 7th century. Jews were slaughtered by the Roman Christians just 14 years after Jews gained access via the Persians.Here is some background to the 614 Persian/Jewish invasion For more details, see post 140 in the link below.http://EvC Forum: Is the bible the word of God or men? -->EvC Forum: Is the bible the word of God or men?Jews were allowed to return and they, along with Christians, outnumbered Muslims till the first successful Crusade in 1099.After 638, Bahat mentions in the 1993 NEAEHL (vol 3. p 786 and yes he authored both the encyclopedia text and BAR article)that the Christian character of Jerusalem didnt change overnight "However with the coming of Muslim imigrants and the conversions that followed the Arab conquest, the proportion of Christians in the population fell steadily".He commented on the 1099 situation once European Christians took the city. Speaking of the Jewish people, Time-life books says I forgot the page number (below) but will edit it in later England in 1290, France in 1394 and when Christians ended 700 years of Islamic rule in Spain , Jews were expelled (with Muslims) in 1492.A speech by Pope Urban II on November 18, 1095 lead to the Crusades. That is the background.Now I will quote Jews from the time just after 638 AD. (next)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I will only quote extremely select parts from a great book: Jerusalem by F.E. Peters with a dedication "For Moshe and Bertha Barasch of Jerusalem Who deserve well of that glorious place".It covers many quotes from Jerusalem period by period.I will only cover a few quotes from the early Islamic period, and they will be only select parts(roughly 1/10 of a text will be quoted).There are more writings I could quote but wont.First a few lines from a apocalyptic poem.here is a tiny part of the intro by Peters Here are some lines (the book has it in italics)from the roughly 30 line poem. A Karaite Jew, Salman ben Yeruham said this (below) from about 950 said...I will substitute "{" and "}" for "[" and "]" and remember that the text is in italics in the book. Next is a a quote of a rabbinic sage from around 750 BCE named Simon ben Yohai
(first quick commentary from Peters) The Jewish text The 7th century Jews took a spiritual interpretation of Ezekial.The Western Christians were "Edom" and Ishmael/Arabs initiated an apocalyptic set of events which led to the return to Jerusalem of Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple.If there was yet any future prophecy ("future" as in post-biblical times)in the Biblical texts , then the 7th century CLEARLY was the time.I have said as much in debates with dispensationalistsSee post my post 60 in link below and IamJosephs responce in post 62.See the exchange between Buz and myself from posts 77 to 90 in the same link. Post 88 is the post where I think I spell it out very clearly.http://EvC Forum: fulfilled prophecy - specific examples. -->EvC Forum: fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.Now, I want to call attention to a fantastic 13 page article in BAR by Moshe Sharon.He starts out by pointing out that every major city of Syria except Caesarea opened its gates to the Muslims around 638 C.E. including Jerusalem.Jerusalem could have easily held off the Muslims but the Christian patriarch surrendered to a "minor" Arabian officer.He points out that most Arab sources skip the anti-climactic details. The compiler of the tradition was Islamic scholar al-Wasiti, a resident of Jerusalem.Sharon says he went into great detail about the various reasons for building the Dome of the Rock.He describes Hebrew prayers, that Muslims used though he himself doesnt know the translation, and Jewish ritualsSharon mentions... It is ironic that the Temple has already been rebuilt and the Jews have already been able to return for 1300 years.The "Old City" was roughly 45% of Jerusalems land area since the days of Solomon and most of its population lived there.There were only 1500 Jews during Solomons time in all of Jerusalem.There were more Jews in the Old City from 638 C.E.-1948 C.E. than during the entire time of Solomon except during crusader times.There were more Jews in the Old City (ie historic "Jerusalem") 300 years ago than there are today.Christians gained religious freedom for the first time ever in 638 CE.If there was a prophetic event then 638 CE was it.It was a good year to be a freedom loving Christin or a Jew.A groundbreaking year that signaled a new era.Edom was defeated.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

The "prophecy" we hear about by fundi's comes from dispensationalism which started with John Nelson Darby c1800 CE.Everybody knows he invented the "rapture" but Darby himself said that he never could have invented the rapture doctrine untile he "discovered" that "Israel" was NOT the body of Christians as orthodox Christians (or any Christian up till his time) have always believed , but actually a race which is distinct from the church.Hence, racial descendants of ancient Israel, especially Judah (ie Jews), have a prophetic plan which does not depend on faith (i.e. they dont need to be Christian) but rather is based on the "unconditional" covenant God made with Abraham c2000BCE.The powerful element in prophecy is a return to the land based on Old Testament prophecies which Darby felt were yet to be fulfilled.The tribulation was yet future and Christians would be spared since the prophecies dont, according to Darby, refer to the church but infact relate to "Israel".Christians will be raptured."Israel" (essentially non-Christian Jews)will face 7 years of tribulation.Dispensationalists make it very clear that God always keeps his promises and thus he will not forget the promise he made to his old friend Abraham 4000 years ago.That is the Abrahamic Covenant.A right to Palestine.An "unconditional" deal God made with the chosen race.No matter what modern-day Jews believe or dont believe (such as a complete rejection of Christ), they have complete rights to their ancient land based on their (unique I suppose?)bloodline.In my next series of posts,I intend to show that the racial argument-which dispensationalism is based on-doesnt work.I will not cover what the Bible actually says in these posts(perhaps later), instead I will assume for the sake of argument that the New Testament actually teaches of an "Israel" based on race in post-Christ times.I will assume for the sake of argument that the dispensationalist interpretation of the New Testament is correct.I will close this post with quotes of leading dispensationalists such as Tim LaHaye and Chuck Missler.Actually, I will save Missler for later(its a dandy-trust me!) The key is not DNA but actually direct ancestry.Jacob and Esau (Edom) were brothers but its the children of Jacob who have the rights that the Abrahamic covenant dictates.LaHaye also said this about the Israelite race. Clearly direct ancestry is fundamental to dispensationalist "prophecy".A racial argument in every way.But are the racial lines the same today as they were 4000 or 3000 even 2500 years ago? (I will address the geographic argument in a few days-and I intend to make excessive use of quotes from dispensationalists at that time; I have many dispensationalists tapes,books, and such and will hammer every last detail of Ezekiel 35:1-39 and the confused arguments dispensationalists make THEN I will compare everything to the archaeological, historical and geographical situation).But first, the racial argument...(anwser coming in the next post or 2)

This period post-dates the Old testament.(post 330 BCE)I will cover the Edomites after they took 2/3s of Judah and mainly were centered in the Negev and to a lesser extent in the southern highland region.I will quote from Lester Grabbe as he seems to be the authority on the 2nd Temple history of the Jewish people.(I forget if this is volume 1 or 2, I have these quotes written on paper and am away from my library) He next quotes Josephus in Ant. So, now a once pagan people that came to inhabit most of Judah also believe the same as Judah.Are they Jews? Are they Edomites? The entire world would say they are "Jews", unless you happen to be a dispensationalist.I wish I could get a good anwser from dispensationalists.But,that aside (for now), lets get back to the history ...(keep in mind that an elipsis with 4 dots "...." between sentences means that I could literally be skipping 95% of a paragraph, and often I am;infact a 3 dotted elipsis actually skips a *hugh* amount of information in one case) My next quotation will skip a ton of details. These historians really amaze me at their depth of study on so many hundreds of issues.Perhaps,dispensationalists can devote the same amount of attention to areas important to their theories (superficiality is the hallmark of dispensationalists "scholarship").Grabbe goes on to talk about an ethnic Arabian tribe (Itureans) which also converted to Judaism.Here is what Josephus says: In a few days I will cover much more accounts of conversions of pagans to Judaism and Jewish converts to Christianity and such.Here is Grabbs informed opinion: Lets move forward and learn more about the most important Idumea. We will take a close look at Kloners work at Marissa in a few days.But quickly,the site that is about a half-mile away: We havnt even scratched the surface of what is about to be covered at Beth Guvrin (in other works).Ill continue in a few days. (still editing post, I didnt get crap done today it seems...)Ill just leave people with an interesting note so far.Imaging if you went back to say 1000 BCE and then looked at the two-thirds of Judah which later became Idumea. Now fast forward to the start of the Common Era (AD 1) 1000 years later.You would see "Jews" in both cases.But there would be quite a biological difference.And it isnt just Judah where that is true.Israel too.

Coyote, you mine quoted one eensy verse out of a lot of corroborating evidence of what we are observing in the Middle East today. That doesn't begin to refute any of the empirical corroborated evidences contained in these verses.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Nonsense.To apply these general passages to one specific incident in the Middle East today is a fool's errand. People have been making such applications with these bible passages for millennia, and with Nostradamus, Jean Dixon and other "prophets" as well. Doesn't mean a thing as they've always been wrong. Why should we believe suddenly that they are accurate predictions in light of a long history of failures?Your a priori belief has clouded your ability to see the world around you and to rationally evaluate such matters.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Coyote, why can't you understand the significance of a nation of people who have been scattered globally into many nations for 19 long centuries having returned to their homeland of ancient days as an identifiable people relative to these prophecies which call for their fulfillment in what was termed "latter days?" When the Jews were dispersed to Babylon in the ancient days, that was not a global dispersement, which makes the significance of this prophecy all the more empirical.Not only that, but here we have the very nations which were prophesied in place poised to destroy Israel and wipe them off the map and you can't even see that. How intellectually blind can you be?To top it off, the prophecy will be fulfilled in a time when walls are not a factor in defense of the cities.Plus we have so many other end time corroborating prophecies either being fulfilled or which have been fulfilled; things like global government powers over all nations. Obama is all for that one with high ambitions for global authority. I've cited prophesied one world monetary system of marks and numbers, unthought of in ancient days as globally imposed upon all nations, tribes and tongues.Add to the above the prophesied ability of all nations viewing one event in one spot on the planet. I've cited all of these and you and about every one else here who claim to be educated intellectuals still dogmatically deny the evidence I've cited. What else can I say?You people remind me of the Pharisees who witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus and rather than acknowledgment they called for the death of both Lazarus and Jesus.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Nimrod, you're muddying up this thread with a lot of detail which is not relevant to the topic. What you need to do if you want to refute the prophecies I've cited is to address the specifics of the prophecies I've itemized by copy and pasting them one by one and showing your stuff relative to each. If you want to go into all this detail I suggest you start your own thread and do your thing.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Because I've yet to be convinced that prophesy is anything other than vague generalities only subsequently interpreted to apply to specific events.The Oracle at Delphi was just as accurate.It is only your belief that makes you argue in favor of these prophesies; in spite of the post title, "Hard empirical evidence" is lacking. Otherwise you could tie specific prophesies to specific events long in advance. The track record of believers doing this over the past 2,000 years is probably worse than chance. And its always, "But we're sure this time!""

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.