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Author Topic:   What does 'The Gospel' mean to you - in 200 words or less
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 46 of 93 (539391)
12-15-2009 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jaywill
12-15-2009 2:28 PM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Maybe the last serious electric guitar player was Chuck Berry.
What about Eric 'God' Clapton?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2009 2:28 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 47 of 93 (539392)
12-15-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jaywill
12-15-2009 2:28 PM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
jaywill writes:
Okay, first rate distortion obsessed ...
Damn straight!
Well, its hard for me to take these late rockers seriously.
They started in the seventies, you know, Lemmy was born in 1945.
I think that last talented rock musician was probably Franky Lyman. Maybe the last serious electric guitar player was Chuck Berry.
Don't know Lyman. Berry isn't that great really.
And this Lemmy fella. His lyrics aren't even as good as Keith whats-his- name fellow who wrote lyrics for Prochal Harum.
They're simple, not overly fanciful, or about bitches and shit, now that's some shitty lyrics right there.
Lemmy at least has a motor mouth to match his head.
Oh yeah, he's damn ugly
Oh, by the way, there's nothing spiritual about it. I just don't have the taste for it.
No problem mate, more for me to enjoy .
Let's stop this offtopic rambling shall we?

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2009 2:28 PM jaywill has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 93 (539432)
12-15-2009 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jaywill
12-15-2009 1:23 PM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Lemmy writes:
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called reLegion, sadistic, sacred whore
Jaywill writes:
What third rate middle age punk rockers came up with this bit of wisdom inbetween their drugs and sleeping around with their groupies?
One small spelling change and it could have been so much different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2009 1:23 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 49 of 93 (539434)
12-15-2009 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jaywill
12-15-2009 7:32 AM


Re: good news
Hi jaywill, sometimes I get the feeling that you are dodging my posts or misunderstanding them intentionally. But it's just a feeling, and I get over it. What I believe is really happening is that we are arguing at cross-purposes. This is common in this debate, isn't it? What I mean is, you aren't really here to attack the things I'm trying to defend, nor am I here the defend the things that you are trying to atack, nor vice-versa either way. We just happen to conflict sort of peripherally in a way that is interesting some times.
Anyway, don't ever take it personally, there's no malice involved. You are one of my favorite people to argue with here, because you don't have your head up your ass too far, your beliefs seem practical rather than abstractions, and you are capable of learning new things and/or reconsidering positions you may have been put in by the argument that don't help your real goals.
Now for the rough part
Whatever you think it will accomplish for you to use the pages of the Bible as toilet paper, that is your hangup.
Not a hangup, a setup -- for the post that followed. Message 22
You are going out of your way to be offensive.
No, I'm not. I'm not being offensive at all. You are correct that many Buddhists are still in a state of idolatry. So I took a Zen teaching that those sort of people tend to object to -- that the scriptures are spiritual toilet paper -- and translated it over into terms that apply to the local churches. The fact that you characterize it as "offensive" is my point. I'm not hurting you, I'm just typing. If you are suffering, then it is you that are hurting yourself.
This is a common argument among alleged Christians and supposed Muslims right now. Both decry idolatry, but each side characterizes the other as desecrating scripture.
Page not found - WND
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Dismay at US Koran 'desecration'
sweetness-light.com - This website is for sale! - sweetness light Resources and Information.
404...
Anything that can be blasphemed is a god, yes? And any god we can hold in our hand is certainly an idol.
Are you trying to make an accusation that the Bible is venerated as an physical object of worship?
More of a mental object, but yes, you have the idea. If I post a proper bond, say twice the standard reprint rates, and print up a nice roll of Recovery Bible in soft 2-ply, the Blended Brothers aren't going to let me get away with it, are they? They aren't going to just take the money and consider their copyright properly intact, they are going to hound me to and fro until I stop it.
William Tyndale, who loved the Bible enough to die to make it known in English, didn't take this sort of a position. Virtually the entire first print run of his foreign edition was sold to the Bishop of London to be burned. This provided the money to pay off his debts and pay for several better printings, and had the side effect of making the book well-known as "forbidden fruit", vastly increasing its readership.
I mention the BB and founders and another "hot button" issue because there's been unpleasant litigation, hasn't there? And when someone like the Scientologists engage in such legal shennanigans to suppress information, we tend to recognize this as characteristic of idolatry.
Granted, I was at a Coptic meeting in which everyone present was suppose to kiss the Bible as it was being passed around. I didn't do it as a visitor.
If I undertook to commune with some Coptic brothers in such a ritual setting, I would participate appropriately. I would consider it symbolic, in a setting where such symbolism is appropriate, and think nothing of it. But once the ceremony was over, I wouldn't confuse the map for the territory.
I've got no problem with bowing to saints or statues, or saluting the flag, or swearing on the Book. Actually worshipping limited objects, which is an act of will, is a different story. The sort of thing that points out real idolatry is not being able to burn crosses, print pictures of Muhammed, or wipe my ass with the flag, in a different and equally appropriate setting.
and sing passages from the Bible
I know you take a lot of crap for that from hicks; you won't get any from me. The best texts of the Hebrew and Greek have musical notation included right in them.
Do you have something specific to object to
Idolatry. Worshipping anything that you can hold in your hand, and anything that you can describe in limited terms. Elevating any finite person, place or thing to a position that is superior to your own direct experience of the eternal.
Second Corinthians 3:10 writes:
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2009 7:32 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2009 4:21 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 50 of 93 (539436)
12-15-2009 8:51 PM


good news
The final meaning of negative theology, of knowing God by unknowing, of the abandonment of idols both sensible and conceptual, is that ultimate faith is not in or upon anything at all. It is complete letting go. Not only is it beyond theology; it is also beyond atheism and nihilism. Such letting go cannot be attained. It cannot be acquired or developed through perseverance and exercises, except insofar as such efforts prove the impossibility of acquiring it. Letting go comes only through desperation. When you know that it is beyond you-beyond your powers of action as beyond your powers of relaxation. When you give up every last trick and device for getting it, including this "giving up" as something that one might do, say, at ten o'clock tonight. That you cannot by any means do it-that is it! That is the mighty self-abandonment which gives birth to the stars.
-- Alan Watts

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 51 of 93 (539446)
12-16-2009 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Brian
12-15-2009 1:28 PM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
The Bible also proves that Jesus could not have been The Messiah, strange that isn't it?
I don't think He saves the world in the NT either, I'd be interested to see where you get this idea from.
Is this your attempt to demonstrate that Jesus was a failed preacher.? It seems you have restated your first contention in different words
Again, Why and how was jesus a failed preacher?
The Bible also proves that Jesus could not have been The Messiah
How could the Bible PROVE that Jesus was NOT this or that, or that he was not the Messiah, since according to you it cannot be trusted in the first place. Since the writers according to you misrepresented the truth about or concerning Jesus, how do you know what he did or did not say, or what he did or did not do, not to mention the fact that you have no logical way of proceeding to demonstrate him as a failed preacher.
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 12-15-2009 1:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 12-16-2009 3:00 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 52 of 93 (539457)
12-16-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2009 1:00 AM


Re: The Gospel: An abomination
Again, Why and how was jesus a failed preacher?
Did you not read message 39?
How could the Bible PROVE that Jesus was NOT this or that, or that he was not the Messiah, since according to you it cannot be trusted in the first place.
Quite easily.
We do not arrive at the conclusion that the Bible is untrustworthy by simply saying so, we arrive at this conclusion by studying the Bible and by studying ancient near eastern archaeology (including texts) to help place the Bible in a plausible historical background. It is only through critically analysing the Bible that we arrive at the conclusion that it is unreliable.
However, it doesn't matter if the Bible can be trusted or not in this particular matter as the internal evidence makes it impossible for Jesus to have been the Messiah. So, even on a purely textual basis, we have enough evidence to reject Jesus as the Messiah. Plus, of course, history also proves that Jesus was no Messiah, I certainly do not see Him listed as any King of Israel, He certainly wasn't of Davidic descent, and Israel was persecuted more after Jesus died that it is ludicrous to suggest that He was anything other than a failure.
The Bible isn't just one book, and when committees gathered the texts together and included the books that they wanted to they were not concerned about harmony of the texts, they were not concerned that the inclusion of lies and fairytales would undermine the reliability of the texts as this was the order of the day anyway, every religious texts was idealistic propaganda that included myths and legends. They were not writing for a critical audience, and it was only once that Europe was free from the persecution of the Church that any criticism of the Bible could take place.
Placing the Bible into an ancient near eastern context has thrown a great deal of light on the texts, and made it crystal clear that the majority of the texts are worthless for reconstructing an accurate past.
The attempts by the anonymous authors of the Gospels to torture the OT texts is so clear that it really doesn't matter if the Bible is 100% fiction, it still contains so many internal errors regarding Jesus' life that it becomes clear that they had to torture the OT texts for some reason, that reason being that Jesus was no Messiah.
Keep in mind as well that it has never been demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any OT messianic prophecies and that the world is still waiting on the Messiah, thus Jesus was a failed preacher.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2009 1:00 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2009 4:43 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 58 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 5:01 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2009 1:24 PM Brian has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 53 of 93 (539463)
12-16-2009 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Iblis
12-15-2009 8:18 PM


Re: good news
Hi jaywill, sometimes I get the feeling that you are dodging my posts or misunderstanding them intentionally.
Both may be true. I do sometimes misunderstand posts.
as for dodging, something like that may also be true. For example, I looked quickly through this post to see if anything was worth my time to discuss. I am sure you do that also.
It is not a matter of disrepect. But I will be selective. Some things are more worth my time to comment on.
But it's just a feeling, and I get over it. What I believe is really happening is that we are arguing at cross-purposes. This is common in this debate, isn't it?
At the present moment without some reminders I cannot recall exactly what we're talking about. Some of it will come back to me as I read on.
What I mean is, you aren't really here to attack the things I'm trying to defend, nor am I here the defend the things that you are trying to atack, nor vice-versa either way. We just happen to conflict sort of peripherally in a way that is interesting some times.
Anyway, don't ever take it personally, there's no malice involved. You are one of my favorite people to argue with here, because you don't have your head up your ass too far, your beliefs seem practical rather than abstractions, and you are capable of learning new things and/or reconsidering positions you may have been put in by the argument that don't help your real goals.
Now for the rough part
Okay, now for the rough part. But I'll choose what part I wish to spend time on. Sorry.
No, I'm not. I'm not being offensive at all. You are correct that many Buddhists are still in a state of idolatry.
Oh yes. You were the fellow that was talking about Allen Watts.
Continue.
So I took a Zen teaching that those sort of people tend to object to -- that the scriptures are spiritual toilet paper -- and translated it over into terms that apply to the local churches. The fact that you characterize it as "offensive" is my point. I'm not hurting you, I'm just typing. If you are suffering, then it is you that are hurting yourself.
Profound.
I didn't read your toilet paper comment too carefully. But if it is of interest to you Witness Lee once said something about one day will be able to throw our Bibles into the lake of fire. That was taken offensively by some people who heard it.
So if you general point has to do with some kind of idolatry involving the physical book of the Bible, I understand basically making an idol out of a book.
Having said that, it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone I have fellowshipped with in the church life for about 39 years. I have never seen such a case.
Now if someone has respect and reverance for a book and treats it that way, I do not call that idolatry. Like, I don't toss my Birth Certificate or Passport around carelessly. I think I want to move on from this matter to something more substantial.
This is a common argument among alleged Christians and supposed Muslims right now. Both decry idolatry, but each side characterizes the other as desecrating scripture.
Well, some Moslems exalt the Quran as a book to be on the same level as the Logos in Christian theology. In other words while they would not consider Muhammed as God incarnate, some of them practically make the "revelation" of the Quran that exalted.
I regard highly the Bible. I apply my regenerated spirit to touch the living Spirit behind the words of the Scripture. I don't worship the physical book binding or anything like that.
Forgive me. But I am not too interested right now in reading these websites.
I think my post was taking Allen Watt's critique of church history and applying some fair and balanced reaction to it. And I do think I was fair to him.
It does not take a great deal of insight or wisdom to point out that there is a lot of spiritually dead and non-vital activity in Christiandom. I don't think Watts is pointing out anything that has not been pointed out by orthodox teachers of the Scriptures.
But the church is glorious too. And leveling accusations against her is like Balaam attempting to curse Israel. No matter what hill he goes to or what angel he attempts to level his charges, God is likely to turn his harrassment into a blessing. Read Numbers 22 and 23.
While we may say from this angle and from that angle God's people look really bad, God sees them in the light of His effective redemption. Balaam's harassment was turned by God into a blessing. Very interesting.
So, while there is rebukes of God towards His people in abundance in the Bible, He will not always patronize critics who are essentially enemies of His work.
I am likely to consult servants of Christ who I know care if I want to learn of the places we Christians have fallen short. Put it this way, Allen Watts would not be at the top of the list because I think he is essentially an opposer to the New Testament in favor of his Zen beliefs and Buddhist ideas of salvation.
He has a vested interest in teaching that Jesus is dead.
Me:
Are you trying to make an accusation that the Bible is venerated as an physical object of worship?
You:
More of a mental object, but yes, you have the idea. If I post a proper bond, say twice the standard reprint rates, and print up a nice roll of Recovery Bible in soft 2-ply, the Blended Brothers aren't going to let me get away with it, are they? They aren't going to just take the money and consider their copyright properly intact, they are going to hound me to and fro until I stop it.
The only thing I read here that I feel is worth commenting on is your usage of the phrase in capital letters "the Blended Brothers"
Now, I have noticed that there always seems the possibility of misunderstanding to those who may not heed the words of Jesus "Be careful HOW you hear" (Luke 8:18).
I have heard the phrase blended brothers or that we need blending. This concept comes directly out of First Corinthians 13. For example:
"God has BLENDED the body together, giving more abundant honor to the member the lacked" (1 Cor. 13:24)
In this chapter on the Body of Christ and her functioning and cordinated members there is some talk from Paul about God BLENDING the members together.
Based upon this revelation of Paul Brother Lee spoke of the need in the Body and in the church life to be BLENDED together. So the blended brothers is not suppose to represent some official designation of particular people. There are no card carrying "Blended Brothers" of some the official clerical status of leadership.
Why should any of us who are functioning members in the church life not be blended? Should we not who are Christians then seek to be blended brothers and blended sisters in Christ's body.
So the innuendo of your paragraph is that there is some official league of "Blended Brothers" as arbitrary tyrants, despots ruling a hierarchy in the local churches.
This comes across to me as paranoia.
I guess, if I do not misunderstand you, you are saying that some official group called "THE Blended Brothers" would disapprove of you making toilet paper out of the Recovery Version.
Frankly, this kind of talk makes me wonder if you have too much time on your hands.
William Tyndale, who loved the Bible enough to die to make it known in English, didn't take this sort of a position.
You mean that you have contacted your so-called "THE Blended Brothers" and they have specifically forbidden you not to make 2-plu toilet paper with the RcV ?
Most of the brothers and sisters I know laboring on the publication of the RcV have better things to do.
If say "They don't come up to the level Williamn Tyndale" OK, I can accept that. Did you not read? All things are ours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or William Tyndale or any other useful saint in the history of the church.
There is no need to plot one servant of Christ against another. We thank God for the function of all His servants. So Praise the Lord for the labors and testimony of William Tyndale. And we are also thankful for what God is doing through the distribution of the Bible today, especially the Recovery Version.
Virtually the entire first print run of his foreign edition was sold to the Bishop of London to be burned. This provided the money to pay off his debts and pay for several better printings, and had the side effect of making the book well-known as "forbidden fruit", vastly increasing its readership.
If you have some complaint with the publishers of the Recovery Version they do have an office of business affairs.
I mention the BB and founders and another "hot button" issue because there's been unpleasant litigation, hasn't there? And when someone like the Scientologists engage in such legal shennanigans to suppress information, we tend to recognize this as characteristic of idolatry.
Who is "we" ?
Does "we" include Gretchen Passintino who was a huge critic of the local churches, who has recently made a public statement that she was wrong in her evaluation?
Does "we" include Fuller Theological Seminary who has set the record straight that the local churches are firmly within the orthodoxy of Christian theology.
Does "we" include Hank Hannagraf of Christian Reseach Ministry, who has completely broken away from the founder Walter Martin's fierce opposition to the local churches? Hank Hannagraf, the new user of the generic title "Bible Answer Man" has also re-evaluated the local churches and according to his more thorough research has pronounced them well within orthodox Christian theology.
Maybe you all (the "we") need to be brought up to date on the state of contraversies about these matters. I won't link you because if you're really interested I am sure you can locate them.
Me:
Granted, I was at a Coptic meeting in which everyone present was suppose to kiss the Bible as it was being passed around. I didn't do it as a visitor.
You:
If I undertook to commune with some Coptic brothers in such a ritual setting, I would participate appropriately.
Wouldn't that be hypocritical? You just gave me down the country for idolizing the physical Bible. Make up your mind.
I can participate respectfully in a Coptic Christian meeting without kissing the book.
I would consider it symbolic, in a setting where such symbolism is appropriate, and think nothing of it. But once the ceremony was over, I wouldn't confuse the map for the territory.
You may handle the matter as you see appropriate. I will follow my own sense.
I nodded towards the Bible they were passing up and down. I did not feel that I needed to kiss it.
Anyway, I will stand before the Lord to give an account for my Christian life and you will give account for yours.
I've got no problem with bowing to saints or statues,
Who is asking you to bow in the church life under Brother Nee or Brother Lee's ministry?
or saluting the flag, or swearing on the Book. Actually worshipping limited objects, which is an act of will, is a different story. The sort of thing that points out real idolatry is not being able to burn crosses, print pictures of Muhammed, or wipe my ass with the flag, in a different and equally appropriate setting.
You spoke of unpleasant litigation. Now I would like to "dodge" some of your rather unpleasant sentances.
What's next after this dodge?
I know you take a lot of crap for that from hicks; you won't get any from me.
LOL!! Thanks !!
The best texts of the Hebrew and Greek have musical notation included right in them.
Really? Interesting. I use to have a cassette tape called Tilahah or something like that. It was suppose to be Hebrew for singing I think.
I really liked that music tape. I lent it to a sister whose husband had died. I never had the heart to ask for it to be returned. But I really liked thier singing of Scripture.
If you'd like to hear some of my own compositions send me an email at jjwilmore@netscape.net.
Do you have something specific to object to
Idolatry. Worshipping anything that you can hold in your hand, and anything that you can describe in limited terms. Elevating any finite person, place or thing to a position that is superior to your own direct experience of the eternal.
Me too. For John wrote:
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, n His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life. Little children keep yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:20,21)
Living in the Truune God is the true God and eternal life. Whatever usurps His place can become an idol. So I seek to live in the sphere and realm of the Him Who is true and His Son Who is true.
This is the true God and eternal life.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Iblis, posted 12-15-2009 8:18 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Iblis, posted 12-16-2009 10:54 PM jaywill has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 54 of 93 (539465)
12-16-2009 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Huntard
12-15-2009 10:52 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Huntard writes:
Well, he was arrested, betrayed by his own people and put to death. I wouldn't call that a great succes....
actually, from Gods point of view, he was the greatest success in the history of the universe.
in what way was he a success? Peter said at 1Peter 2:22
He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.
His success came from not falling below Gods standard of perfection. He maintained his integrity to God under the most extreme circumstances. He also showed that his fight was not with the people, but with Satan the devil. The night before his death he said at John 14:30
I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me
this ruler of the world put him to the greatest test anyone could experience...and Jesus succeed in overcoming him. Jesus did not sin under trial. That is why he was so successful. By not sinning, he proved a universal truth about mankind, that a perfect man could remain sinless even in a sinful world and that God did not make Adam and Eve prone to sinning.
and because of this, we have the hope of being redeemed from sin and death. Jesus bought us with the price of his blood. If we take refuge in him, God will grant us the prospect of everlasting life in perfect conditions.
There has not been a greater success in the history of mankind then in Jesus perfect sacrifice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 10:52 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2009 4:49 AM Peg has replied
 Message 62 by hooah212002, posted 12-16-2009 8:22 AM Peg has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 55 of 93 (539466)
12-16-2009 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Brian
12-16-2009 3:00 AM


Re: The Gospel: An abomination
Keep in mind as well that it has never been demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any OT messianic prophecies and that the world is still waiting on the Messiah, thus Jesus was a failed preacher.
I think you should speak for yourself.
I am quite amazed at the activity of Jesus just in my lifetime. I see Jesus working in Russia, in China, in the Middle East, in Israel.
I see Jesus working in the US and in South America. I see Jesus quite active and quiet effective.
When Moses came to deliver the children of Israel some of the Hebrews doubted that he was a God sent. After the first plague still no deliverance. After the second and third and fourth plague, STILL they were slaves in Egypt.
After the fifth and sixth and seventh and eight plague STILL they were slaves in Egypt. After the tenth plague they still were being pursued with their backs against the wall of the Red Sea. Some doubted then too.
After they crossed the Red Sea and were in the wilderness STILL some doubted and wanted to stone Moses.
So Christ's work is progressive. And as I have said before when Jesus does physically return to this earth, most people will think it is TOO SOON rather than too late.
You for one, Brian, if you do not repent of your sins to be saved, when Jesus comes to you, you'll think He's arrived too soon rather than too late.
So I would take advantage of His delay to be saved and filled up with the Spirit of Christ as much as you can in your soul. Remember the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. The wise had extra oil in their vessels with their lamps. Oil, as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, is needed in abundance for the coming age of Christ's kingdom.
People need to cease the TIME now to be filled in thier personalities with the Holy Spirit. So the wise thing to do rather than oppose Christ, is to let Him into your heart and allow Him as much room as you can.
Now did you notice how the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls pushed back the available copies of the prophet Isaiah by I think as much as one thousand years prior to what was the earliest copy?
And its accuracy was greatly vindicated when they compared the latter Isaiah to the earlier copy discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 12-16-2009 3:00 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 93 (539468)
12-16-2009 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
12-15-2009 1:26 PM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Brian writes:
Well we are still waiting ont he arrival of The Messiah, it's a difficult one to miss.
the arrival of Jesus in kingdom power is already here
and not everyone missed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 12-15-2009 1:26 PM Brian has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 57 of 93 (539469)
12-16-2009 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peg
12-16-2009 4:41 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
So, what you're saying is that we can act violently upon somebody when in our eyes they are "defiling" a sacred place, like Jesus did in the temple? That's not sinful at all, in fact it is perfection?

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 4:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 5:06 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 58 of 93 (539471)
12-16-2009 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Brian
12-16-2009 3:00 AM


Re: The Gospel: An abomination
Brian writes:
However, it doesn't matter if the Bible can be trusted or not in this particular matter as the internal evidence makes it impossible for Jesus to have been the Messiah.
im interested in what internal evidence you use to suggest this...can you list it please.
Brian writes:
history also proves that Jesus was no Messiah, I certainly do not see Him listed as any King of Israel, He certainly wasn't of Davidic descent, and Israel was persecuted more after Jesus died that it is ludicrous to suggest that He was anything other than a failure.
you are basing this on the fact that you believe there should have been a physcial fullfillment...the bible did not claim that Jesus would sit as a king for the literal nation of Isreal in a physical sense.
Secondly, the literal nation of Isreal was prophetically explained to be cut off and a new nation would be adopted....the new nation would be made up from people of all the nations. This has happened as chritianity in every nation is an attestament to.
thirdly, why on earth would you expect God to continue to protect a nation that had just rejected him and his son??? You think God is a sentamentalist perhaps?
Brian writes:
Keep in mind as well that it has never been demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any OT messianic prophecies
That is completely wrong. If you dont beleive the bible for a start, how can you assume to know which prophecies were not fulfilled??? Why would you even believe any prophecies if you dont believe in the bible anyway???
There are hundreds of prophecies that christ fulfilled and there are some still to be fullfilled because they relate to the time after the kingdom takes rulership of the earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 12-16-2009 3:00 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 59 of 93 (539472)
12-16-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Huntard
12-16-2009 4:49 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Huntard writes:
So, what you're saying is that we can act violently upon somebody when in our eyes they are "defiling" a sacred place, like Jesus did in the temple? That's not sinful at all, in fact it is perfection?
he did not harm any of the people in the temple, he overturned their tables and 'drove them out' of the temple because it was illegal for them to be there
he stood up for righteousness when noone else would
"Stop making the house of my father a cave of robbers" is what he said to those greedy merchants.
it wasnt a violent act, it was an act of justice on behalf of the law. Much like the way a police officer might legally remove someone who is trespassing unlawfully on someone elses property.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2009 4:49 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by AdminPD, posted 12-16-2009 7:04 AM Peg has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 60 of 93 (539480)
12-16-2009 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
12-16-2009 5:06 AM


Topic Drift
I feel that continuing to debate whether Jesus was a failed Messiah or preacher is going beyond the scope of this thread.
Those pursuing this line of discussion should start a new thread to hash out the issues.
Thanks
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 5:06 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Brian, posted 12-16-2009 8:18 AM AdminPD has replied
 Message 64 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2009 11:49 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
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