|
Author
|
Topic: Is justice even possible without God?
|
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 1 of 20 (45837)
07-12-2003 4:25 PM
|
|
|
I have been pondering this question for a few days now, it started when I began to write an essay on why our "legal system" should never be called a "justice system". It is a system of legalities that occasionally may lead to justice, however it is a far cry from a "justice system". When I began to try and think of an alternate system, one worthy of the term "justice system", I could do no better than our legal system. It seems to me that without an all knowing and all powerful God (who is just) there can be no justice. I can see no other way for absolute justice. I'm curious what the rest of you here think about this. ------------------ Saved by an incredible Grace.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2 by nator, posted 07-12-2003 4:53 PM | | funkmasterfreaky has replied | | | Message 9 by Zhimbo, posted 07-13-2003 1:59 AM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 17 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-13-2003 10:49 PM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 18 by Peter, posted 07-16-2003 5:12 AM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
I don't think that "absolute", perfect justice is possible, because we are human and therefore imperfect in our intelligence and judgement. We do the best we can with the information at hand. That's life, really.
|
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 3 of 20 (45849)
07-12-2003 5:12 PM
|
Reply to: Message 2 by nator
07-12-2003 4:53 PM
|
|
So the term justice is an idealist term. I don't know how things work in the rest of the world, I know alot of places are even worse than Canada, but our legal system is a joke. So without a just God there can be no justice? ------------------ Saved by an incredible Grace.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by nator, posted 07-12-2003 4:53 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by Wounded King, posted 07-12-2003 6:01 PM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 5 by Gzus, posted 07-12-2003 6:45 PM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 6 by John, posted 07-12-2003 7:15 PM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 8 by nator, posted 07-13-2003 12:31 AM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied | | | Message 12 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2003 9:02 AM | | funkmasterfreaky has not replied |
|
Wounded King
Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: 04-09-2003
|
Picking up the thread
And since the world is patently unjust should we therefore conclude that there is no God?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-12-2003 7:39 PM | | Wounded King has replied |
|
Gzus
Inactive Member
|
quote:
so without a just God there can be no justice?
well, yes i suppose, but you presuppose the existence of 'right' and 'wrong' as divine, universal truths. If on the other hand, you define 'right' and 'wrong' as an individual thing, then 'personal justice' is possible as opposed to 'universal justice'.
|
John
Inactive Member
|
quote:
So without a just God there can be no justice?
From my point of view, Funk, there never has been a God, yet we've always had something we've referred to as justice. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
|
Re: Picking up the thread
quote:
And since the world is patently unjust should we therefore conclude that there is no God?
Even though I don't believe there is a God, agreeing with this statement would be a logical fallacy. It's affirming the consequent. "If there is no God, the world will be unjust. The world is unjust, therefore there is no God" is a little like saying "If it rains today, it will be cold. It is cold, therefore it must be raining." ------------------ ----------- Dan Carroll
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Wounded King, posted 07-12-2003 6:01 PM | | Wounded King has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
quote:
So the term justice is an idealist term.
Well, sure, just like "truth", "love", and "good" are idealist terms. They are worth striving for but we will never find perfection in them because perfection in human reality doesn't exist.
quote:
I don't know how things work in the rest of the world, I know alot of places are even worse than Canada, but our legal system is a joke.
No, it isn't a joke compared to much of the rest of the world. The justice systems in our respective countries are better than many and not as good as some. They are better than they used to be in some respects and much worse in others. All we can do is keep working towards improvement. It's our responsibility as members of the community in which we live.
quote:
So without a just God there can be no justice?
Not at all. Justice has always been in the hands of humans in my view, and sometimes it's served and sometimes it isn't. We need to keep vigilant to keep makeing things better. It's in our hands. It always has been.
|
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6032 days) Posts: 571 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: 07-28-2001
|
"Justice" is overrated, anyway. "Justice" is generally about consequences for past actions. People should spend more time trying to make the future better.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2003 2:05 AM | | Zhimbo has not replied |
|
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
|
|
|
Message 10 of 20 (45885)
07-13-2003 2:05 AM
|
Reply to: Message 9 by Zhimbo
07-13-2003 1:59 AM
|
|
I always though justice was more about correcting behavior. In that sense, justice has been served everytime somebody "goes forth and sins no more." But I guess repeat offenders mean it's not perfect.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Zhimbo, posted 07-13-2003 1:59 AM | | Zhimbo has not replied |
|
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 11 of 20 (45888)
07-13-2003 3:05 AM
|
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
07-13-2003 2:05 AM
|
|
justice \Jus"tice\, n. [F., fr. L. justitia, fr. justus just. See Just, a.] 1. The quality of being just; conformity to the principles of righteousness and rectitude in all things; strict performance of moral obligations; practical conformity to human or divine law; integrity in the dealings of men with each other; rectitude; equity; uprightness. Justice and judgment are the haditation of thy throne. -- Ps. ixxxix. 11. The king-becoming graces, As justice, verity, temperance, stableness, . . . I have no relish of them. -- Shak. 2. Conformity to truth and reality in expressing opinions and in conduct; fair representation of facts respecting merit or demerit; honesty; fidelity; impartiality; as, the justice of a description or of a judgment; historical justice. 3. The rendering to every one his due or right; just treatment; requital of desert; merited reward or punishment; that which is due to one's conduct or motives. This even-handed justice Commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice To our own lips. -- Shak. 4. Agreeableness to right; equity; justness; as, the justice of a claim. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 MIRCA, Inc. justice is rendering to every one that which is his due. It has been distinguished from equity in this respect, that while justice means merely the doing what positive law demands, equity means the doing of what is fair and right in every separate case. Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary Before I looked this up my idea of justice was; making right, what had been made wrong. I hadn't even really thought about the fact that giving each man his due meant, positive reward for positive action as well. I also found it interesting as a christian to read these definitions of justice, as the definitions seemed to very closely fit with what I know of the character of my God, and helped to expand my understanding of God's justice.  edit: I know the second definition is an old one, but I thought it was interesting. I find old definitions are a little more precise because the language was a little less mutilated at the time. ------------------ Saved by an incredible Grace. [This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 07-13-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2003 2:05 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
|
To say that there can be no justice without God is obviously false. Would you really want to say that even the best justice systems in the world never convict the guilty ? Or never set a sentence that is too far out of line ? Absolute justice is not possible in the universe we see it without some form of supernatural enforcement. But even then it could be a force like "karma" rather than an intelligent judge.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2003 6:16 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
|
Wounded King
Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: 04-09-2003
|
Picking up the thread
I don't agree Dan. It's saying 'If there is a just god, the world will be just. The world is not just, therefore there is no God." and equates to " If it rains today, it will be cold. It is warm today, therefore it is not raining."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-12-2003 7:39 PM | | Dan Carroll has not replied |
|
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
|
|
|
Message 14 of 20 (45909)
07-13-2003 6:16 PM
|
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
07-13-2003 9:02 AM
|
|
I think perhaps his point is to ask "is imperfect justice really just?"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2003 9:02 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
|
mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
|
|
|
Message 15 of 20 (45916)
07-13-2003 8:32 PM
|
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
07-13-2003 6:16 PM
|
|
'I think perhaps his point is to ask "is imperfect justice really just?"' the answer has to be no , the problem is many people think if you have been given a fair trial then justice has been done. but thats just silly because if you are innocent and you go to jail then ofcourse its injust.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2003 6:16 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2