hello obsidian... you've raised some very good questions... if you'll accept that i don't have all the answers, i can try to tell you what i believe to be true, based on what little understanding i've been given in these matters...
quote:
Originally posted by obsidian:
I know the basic dogma, I think, Its that Jesus died for our sins and if we accept Jesus into our hearts we can ascend into the kingdom of heaven. But what is the debt? The idea that Jesus died as a payment for both retrograde and anterograde sins (past and future) doesn't make sense to me. I can see past... everyone sinful, here's the payment (Jesus life) but in the future, it just seems that its like paying for in advance for a car accident that may or may not happen.
this is one of the hardest things to understand... i think God's economy viz the jews of the old testament has been preserved so we can see, in retrospect, what his plan has always been... so maybe this will help some... let's go back to the jewish sacrifices
once a year (on the day of atonement) the high priest entered the holy of holies, the part of the temple where only he was permitted... there was a lot of ritual associated with this, but the bottom line was that if God accepted the sacrifice, all sins of all jews for the year just ended were forgiven (as a sidenote, one i can develop later if you want, it follows that any jew who didn't believe this to be true wouldn't be included in the forgiveness.. this is very important)
the very next day, they started sinning again, so this ritual had to be repeated yearly... the sacrifice, iow, was only good for the past... the new testament teaches (mainly in hebrews, but elsewhere also) that Jesus, "the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world," took the place of both the high priest *and* the sacrifice... so Jesus voluntarily gave his life *and* was the one who offered it to God as atonement for our sins... hebrews states that this sacrifice was for all time else Christ "..would have to die over and over.."
so we have, according to the bible, an eternal sacrifice, made before the world existed, made in eternity and manifest in time... once for all, the bible says, one sacrifice for all time to all who believe (which ties in with the part above), both jew and gentile... see, Jesus died at a point in time on a hill in calvary... but my sins of today, this moment, were covered by his blood else he'd have to be crucified again tomorrow... an eternal act of will, outside of time, includes all time... the actual point in time when the act occurs doesn't change the timeless nature of that act
so all of our sins, all the sins of those who believe it to be true, were taken by Christ... he voluntarily answers for all my sins, and yours, he has assumed our guilt... since he himself was guiltless, righteous in the eyes of God, doesn't this raise a contradiction? no, because more happened that simply taking our sins... his righteousness, his standing with God, was given to me, to you, to her, to all who believe... that means, when God looks at me he doesn't see *me*... he doesn't see my stained soul, Jesus took that, Jesus assumed responsibility for all my sins... God sees the righteousness of Christ when he looks at me, because Jesus transferred that righteousness to me... all i have to do is accept his gift of righteousness, see?... and accepting, i simply *know* who i am, in Christ, and i *know* who God sees when he looks at me... not me as i was but me as i am... just as i am *now*... and i am righteous and sinless and spotless and perfect *in the eyes of God* because Jesus *gave* me those things... freely he gave, gratefully i receive... by his grace am i saved, through faith.. all a gift, not deserved, unearned...
as to "what debt," or why we owe God anything, funky had it right... see, God chose to create us even knowing that creating us in his image would mean we'd have the same freedom he has, but without the knowledge or wisdom to use it... still, he had no choice except to create robots pre-programmed to do his will... a robot can't love... oh we might not know that love for God didn't originate with us, if we were so programmed, but he'd know... and that makes all the difference...
anyway, God created us with this free will knowing ahead of time what we'd do with it... as a holy being he was in a quandary... he loved us and wanted us to be with him eternally, yet his holiness disallowed sin in his presence... to God, sin is a crime... high treason against his nature, and there's only one punishment... but how can he exact that punishment on his children? is there a way out of this trap?
only one, and he knew this before he created... he knew he'd have to assume responsibility for our actions, since he'd created us knowing *how* we'd act... so that's what he did...
quote:
If God is omniscient and omni benevolent, why doesn't he use his godly powers to stop evil and keep mankind from committing sins. I mean, if I have a dog that bites people, I will train that dog not to... God allows murders rapes wars (In his name!) etc to occur without lifting a godly finger. I mean he has had 2 thousand years since Jesus came on the scene, and the last 200 have been the most bloody (in my opinion). I am just surprised we haven't gotten a godly bitch-slap yet (sorry for the language Admin) to bring us to heel. I mean free will is all well and good, but maybe a rain of fire and brimstone may make sinners get their acts together.
yes, evil... you're right, it exists... and it is hard to understand how God can allow it... but what would you have him do? stop evil *now*?... all evil or just some? if all, you and i have our share to answer for... have you ever thought about it this way? God *is* doing something about evil... but we can't see the whole puzzle, only small pieces at a time... we don't know what needs to happen "in the fullness of time" for God's plan to be realized... it's always a choice, right? i choose to trust his knowledge and wisdom and yeah it's frustrating... i want answers the same as you do, and i want them *now* very often... but God is God and i'm not... so i always end up trusting him... he's either God or he isn't...
quote:
Also, why the run around with the whole Jesus thing.... oh you're sinful you will burn in hell.... the only way to get into heaven is to repent.... but you must go through my son and accept him into your heart as well. I mean, what if you believe in God your whole life and you are a kind,well respected and decent person... if you don't buy into the whole Jesus thing, you get to go south when you die.....
I just don't get it,
Obsidian
this is such a good question... the necessity of Jesus can be tough to understand... but consider this... two men rob a bank and go to trial... both are guilty, the camera clearly caught them both in the act... both are found guilty and as the judge prepares to pass sentence one of the men says, "judge, whatever the sentence is i'll take it for both of us... let my friend go free and let me pay his debt and mine"...
the judge says, "no that is not in the interest of justice.. both of you are guilty, both of you will pay your debt for that guilt.. you have your own guilt to answer for, he has his"..
now let's say one of the men's mother stood up before sentencing and said to the judge, "your honor, i've lived an honest life.. i've committed no crimes, i've broken no laws.. my record is spotless... whatever sentence you're about to pass on my son, i ask you pass on me instead.. i will pay his debt, i will redeem him, i will sacrifice my life for his"
Jesus lived such a life, guiltless and spotless and without sin.. only such a person could assume another's guilt, only a person who didn't have his own debt to pay... if death is the penalty for sin, and had Jesus any sin of his own, his death would only pay for his sin... not mine, not yours, not hers... but one life for all who sinned? is that justice? it is when that life is God very God... it is when the righteousness exchanged for the sins is greater than the sum total of all sins... it is when it's the perfect nature of God
the precedent for Jesus standing in our place is found in (again) the jewish economy under God... the 'kinsman redeemer' thingy... in order to "qualify" to have him take my sins tho, i have to be a kinsman... i've been, at the moment i believed these things, adopted into God's house, adopted as his son... i *am* his son and Jesus' brother because of this... his kinsman... and he is my Redeemer
™ Version 4.2
(1)
