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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
hi forgiven,
quote: We're starting to arrive at an answer to my common theme - what are the reasons for believing in God over believing in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Goblins or whatever? Amalgamating yours and Gene's comments the principal reasons (i say principal as these are the ones you've offered up first) would appear to be:
I don't buy the "internally consistent" method of differentiation as the IPU is completely internally consistent (for more on the IPU see here).
quote: I think I'm finally beginning to understand your point (again ). To paraphrase, you're saying that a materialist is being inconsistent in that he uses transcendental objects to deny the existence of transcendental objects. To demonstrate what you mean, you use the fact that logic is a transcendental object, so we can specify your argument to "materialists use logic to deny the existence of logic", or even more sharply to "if only physical objects can be said to exist then logic does not exist". By "physical objects", you would include gravity, electric charge and quark colour because they are "suspended in space and time". Can you explain what you mean by this? Take the example of gravity - gravity is what makes masses attract. And what makes masses attract? Well, gravity. Does this make it a thing, or an explanatory tool? If you look at a logic gate or a computer, then isn't logic also physically suspended in space time? Or are you saying that a materialist doesn't accept the existence of gravity etc either?
quote: As did the Jews before the Christians and many cultures before that - to claim that materialists are borrowing from a Christian worldview is a major distortion.
quote: You have to define exactly what you mean by logic before I can answer this? Why would it be surprising if it was a human invention? Did the concept of "humanity" exist before life? Again, you'll have to differentiate the two transcendental concepts for me. PE ------------------Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense - Carl Sagan
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forgiven Inactive Member |
hi p.e.
quote: this seems to be the crux of the problem... i define logic as based on the law of non-contradiction... i gave an analogy to john, i'll use it here... it's earth, 3.5 billion years ago... there is no life of any kind... none, zip, zilch... is the law of non-contradicion in effect? can earth both occupy it's portion of space/time and *not* occupy its portion at the same time in the same way? if not, logic existed...
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. YOu said that athiests couldn't explain where logic and reason came from, and that Christians could. I pointed out that Evolutionary Psychology is investigating the origins of logic and reasoning ability.
quote: The problem is your use of the word "explain." "Explain" means something different to the materialist than it does to the mystic.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Ya know. I feel that same amazement, but awe doesn't equate to 'it had to have been designed' ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I made this same point. Apparently, forgiven considers the Christian worldview as having permiated the universe since its creation, even though such worldview hadn't been verbalized until circa 200 AD. Thus, these various peoples ALL borrowed from this sort-of thing in itself christian worldview. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Is logic the law of contradiction, or is it a verbal mathematics based upon the law of contradiction? I think you are confusing the two.
quote: ... probably was life here then
quote: You are talking about physics, not logic. You said yourself that logic was BASED ON the LoNC. This does not make it the same as. Tell me that logic IS the LoNC. I dare you, because once you do you are stuck there. The sum of logic is the LoNC. Derivatives won't be logic mind you, if logic IS the LoNC.
quote: Well, there is this concept in quantum physics called the superposition of states.... Sub-atomic particles, even atoms, do it all the time. Most physicists seem to concure that superposition breaks down just over atomic scale, but a few disagree. Even so, travel far enough back in time and the whole universe likely exhibited just this sort of weirdness. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
quote: Aha, so she's not using Christian in the sense of "religion founded by Jesus Christ" but in the sense of "a prehistoric absolute"?PE ------------------Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense - Carl Sagan
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
quote: *I'm going to ignore the fact that I feel insulted here.* Why would you feel insulted? This delusion you have is not really your fault. *It doesn't take a certain kind of person to believe in God.* Yes it does, just as it takes a certain kind of person NOT to believe in God. It takes a certain kind of person who believes through faith rather than empirical evidence. It takes a certain type of person who is so gullible that they will ignore all contrary evidence to their beliefs. It takes a certain kind of person who will never admit that the Bible is wrong about many things. *I think the bible is pretty clear that the blood of Jesus was shed for everyone not just for drug addicts who want to trade up.* Let’s look a bit closer at this. *The blood of Jesus was shed for everyone.* Presumably his blood is to save all mankind from eternal torment in Hell. This is pretty illogical as it was Jesus’ mistakes (as creator) in the first place that condemns everyone to Hell. Maybe if God had created perfect humans then the first sin would not have happened, Jesus was pretty dumb. Now we are asked to believe that God requires that his Son (himself really) to be tortured and killed to wipe out the mistakes that God made in the first place! LOL, God requires that God be killed to make things right between God and his creation again. This is really an ignorant faith that has been responsible for untold suffering; Christianity has been an abomination on mankind since it was dreamed up. *..not just for drug addicts who want to trade up.* So you admit then that it is similar to being a drug addict, thank you for confirming my theory. *So you know my nature now do you?* Evidently. *Boy you're brilliant must be phsycic or something.* Nope, just educated and experienced. *That aside yes it USED to be my nature to be addicted to something.* So I was correct then? Funky, you cannot change your nature, you can try to suppress certain parts of it, but if it is in you nature then it is in your nature. *This is the incredible thing here!* Yes it is incredible, that’s certainly one word for it. *This being drunk on the Spirit I mentioned is not something I go out of my way to attain, it's not a high in the usual sense of the word.* But it is still a high that you are obviously addicted to because it is in your nature, as you admit. *It's just something that happens when you allow the Holy Spirit to dwell within you,* You contradict yourself here, you say that you don’t go out of your way to get drunk on the Holy Spirit but then you also allow it to dwell within you. You appear not to go out of your way to AVOID it either! Your addictive nature again. Are you a passive participant or can you reject the Holy Spirit’s intrusions into your life? *when you listen to his gentle urges and allow him to make you God's instrument.* What does he say, what are you an instrument for, what does an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God need with a former drug addict? *It's that proximity to God, to be in his graces that leaves your spirit exhilerated and rejuvinated.* Exhilarated and rejuvenated like the affect artificial stimulants have on a person? All these highs and you don’t have to spend all your money on it, or steal from your friends and family or beg, great!! I am actually glad that the belief in God has saved you from your former life; God does have his uses. Now that God has got you out of this tragic lifestyle, ditch God and take up fishing, or writing, or some other hobby. Holding onto belief in god in the obsessive way you have shown at this forum will do you serious long term psychological damage, you might get a bit cold and wet while fishing but you can always dry yourself off and warm yourself up at a fire. Best Wishes Brian. ------------------Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
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John Inactive Member |
quote: It still doesn't make sense. I don't see the need for metaphysical entities, unless you are claiming that physical laws are, well, metaphysical. And that is kind of silly.
quote: But there is no need for a trancendent entity to frame the argument. The law of non-contraciction, as you have defined logic, is a description of how things appear to work, it isn't an independently existing thing. It doesn't even hold universally. Subatomic particles happily ignore it all the time.
quote: Wow. You are more of a Platonist than I thought. There is no need for a collection of Laws-of-Physics Entities sitting like Kings on metaphysical thrones. There is observation and our interpretation of it. We call this interpretation a law of physics. They are description of physical processes.
quote: I don't think you answered my question about the French language? Did French exist before people spoke it?
quote: Quarks? I don't really know what you mean, but I have a hard time understanding how quark weirdness can help your case.
quote: Colloquially, sure. Something can exist without anyone knowing about it. But does it exist? You seem to be begging this question. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Right-o. The debate in this thread about logic and how it can exist prior to human existence? That started because forgiven made a claim to the effect that logic existed before humans. The Christian worldview likewise existed before Christianity. I have a problem with both of these assertions. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
quote: The second one I agree with you. I'm not sure about the first (open to persuasion tho') - it seems to me to lie within the definition of "logic". If you define logic as that which comes out of a logic gate, then logic becomes a tangible measurable quantity, like charge or gravity. If you define logic as a method of assigning relationships between things, then it only exists before life inasmuch as "methods for assigning relationships" existed before life. It does smack a little of "how many angels can dance on a head of a pin?" to me tho', I must admit. Maybe I haven't had the relevance properly explained to me? PE ------------------Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense - Carl Sagan [This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 12-10-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Exactly.
quote: But it seem to me that you are measuring electricity or some other physical quality, and not logic itself. In other words, does the quantity you measure actually fit what we consider logic? I can't convince myself that it does.
quote: This pretty much my take on it. Logic isn't the relationships, it is our description of them. Forgiven, seems to want or need it to BE the relationships. This doesn't make sense to me for several reasons. Logic was invented and has been reinvented numerous times. Just look up symbolic logic on the web. There are dozens of systems. The first thing is just about any logic text is the statement that logic deals with statements, not necessarily the real world. It is an abstract system for analyzing propositions. And, logic breaks down, with the breakdown of strict classical mechanics, at sub-atomic scales. It therefore can't be an absolute. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
quote: I don't have the same problem. One way of measuring the force of gravity on Earth is by the distance two suspended heavy balls move towards one another. You're measuring distance, but you're inferring gravity from it. That said, to define logic as that which comes out of a logic gate does seem like a pretty unusual idea, kind of like bootstrapping a physical quantity - I claim that one for myself PE ------------------Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense - Carl Sagan
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Chara Inactive Member |
quote:Just leaping out into the dark here .... Would it be acceptable to say that the only form of logic that can be absolute in your way of thinking is "that which can be measured"? ie mathematically? edited to fix these dratted quote thingies grrrr [This message has been edited by Chara, 12-10-2002]
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
quote: CONGRATULATIONS!!! - You beat me to it. Now if everyone else would fix their coding mistakes (Hint: Use preview function). Adminnemooseus ------------------{mnmoose@lakenet.com}
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