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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 508 (772440)
11-14-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
11-14-2015 7:51 AM


Re: A Few Details
I don't think we can make it stop in the near or medium term. It could take generations. What actions could we possibly take that will stop people wanting to blow themselves up and take as many others with them as possible in the name of God?
We can't disprove their religious beliefs. Appealing to their humanity doesn't seem like a particularly worthwhile endeavour.
Cut the money supply. But how?
Cut the propaganda chain. But how?
Solve the Middle East territory dispute pertaining to Israel and Palestine. But how?
End the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. But how?
End the notion that all of this is Gods will. But how?
It's religious fanaticism mixed up with geo-politics, ancient conflicts mixed up with modern wars and a military conflict with no recognisable enemy territory.
If it goes on long enough the fanaticism that the desired outcome (whatever that may be - some sort of global Islamic theocracy?) is just around the corner will lose credibility even amongst the devoted and then it might start to die out naturally.
I not optimistic about this.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 7:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 8:49 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 9:21 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 24 by Diomedes, posted 11-14-2015 10:51 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 110 by dronestar, posted 11-16-2015 3:28 PM Straggler has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 508 (772441)
11-14-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
11-14-2015 8:01 AM


Judgment is avoidable by repentance and turning back to God.
There was never a perfect Christian nation, but there have been good Christian leaders of many nations at different times. There aren't any these days. I have no idea what period you are talking about though.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 508 (772442)
11-14-2015 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
11-14-2015 8:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
I don't think we can make it stop in the near or medium term. It could take generations. What actions could we possibly take that will stop people wanting to blow themselves up and take as many others with them as possible in the name of God?
abe You can't stop that, but you can keep them out of areas where blowing themselves up will kill innocent people. That's what Israel tries to do, and more or less succeeds, though politically correct world opinion is against them. THAT's the biggest problem in this whole thing, that you aren't allowed to keep murderers from murdering people because of political correctness. /abe
We can't disprove their religious beliefs. Appealing to their humanity doesn't seem like a particularly worthwhile endeavour.
Cut the money supply. But how?
Cut the propaganda chain. But how?
Solve the Middle East territory dispute pertaining to Israel and Palestine. But how?
End the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. But how?
End the notion that all of this is Gods will. But how?
It's religious fanaticism mixed up with geo-politics, ancient conflicts mixed up with modern wars and a military conflict with no recognisable enemy territory.
If it goes on long enough the fanaticism that the desired outcome (whatever that may be - some sort of global Islamic theocracy?) is just around the corner will lose credibility even amongst the devoted and then it might start to die out naturally.
I not optimistic about this.....
Of course not. There's nothing to be optimistic about as long as the real causes are not faced, and the main problem not being faced is that Islam itself preaches the murders you want to stop. Not that all Muslims are murderers, some aren't even aware that this is what their religion preaches, but it does and that's why any Muslim is a ticking time bomb.
As for actions, based on the above knowledge, and the knowledge which is available in all kinds of Muslim official pronouncements that their aim is not to stop short of forcing the whole world to bow to Allah, the only solution is sending them all back where they came from. Really. And keep armed and ready against them. When they see they haven't the power to execute Allah's will they become docile. But you have to force them into that position.
As long as Political Correctness ties the hands of the victims nothing will ever be done about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Straggler, posted 11-14-2015 8:21 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Omnivorous, posted 11-14-2015 11:10 AM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 19 of 508 (772444)
11-14-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
11-14-2015 8:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
I believe that atrocities like this are bred from circumstances of despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness. We have to fix the Middle East. The unending Palestinian/Israeli brawl must end. We must understand that there is no such thing as nation building. Continuity is essential, so as distasteful as Saddam Hussein was and Bashar al-Assad is, overthrowing them only makes things worse. We were wrong to depose Hussein, and Russia is right in trying to prop up al-Assad.
How do we remove despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness? Give them something positive to focus on. Continue to encourage (that's not a synonym for interfere) Middle Eastern countries toward greater economic and political hope. Don't allow refugee camps where families raise their children all the way to adulthood. Either enable them to become productive and successful in their homeland, or allow them to emigrate somewhere that that's possible. Regarding immigration, western countries can either let those in troubled circumstances into their borders peacefully or risk the threat of festering incubators of terrorism throughout a broad region.
The days when we can successfully solve problems by projecting our power into foreign regions are over. While thrid world countries and local armies can't beat determined western armies, they can make it very expensive and very lengthy, and they can make the homelands of the western countries suffer greatly through terrorism. It isn't like the Korean or Vietnam wars where our armies were over there and our civilians were safe and sound over here. In today's world the civilians are also in danger.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 10:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 66 by nwr, posted 11-15-2015 12:21 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 508 (772445)
11-14-2015 9:30 AM


I believe that atrocities like this are bred from circumstances of despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness.
NO! Absolute nonsense. Politically correct psychobabble. The problem is that Islam is an ideology that preaches violence and death against outsiders. THAT is the problem. Any other analysis is only going to prolong the problem.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2015 10:25 AM Faith has replied
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-14-2015 12:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 508 (772446)
11-14-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-14-2015 9:30 AM


Faith writes:
The problem is that Islam is an ideology that preaches violence and death against outsiders.
As does Christianity. The difference is that Christianity manages to ignore its more revolting ideas and was reformed through secular and economic development. Islam has not been reformed and the worst parts of it are still practiced literally in under-developed countries with low education.
Like Christianity, it's going to take centuries to grow up and grow out of its worst aspects. And like Christianity it'll take a few more centuries to merge into a fuzzy sort of general niceness with little reference to its fundamental idiocies.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 9:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 22 of 508 (772449)
11-14-2015 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
11-14-2015 9:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
I believe that atrocities like this are bred from circumstances of despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness.
On the contrary. ISIS think they're going to win because God is on their side. A bit of despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness would be just what the doctor ordered. But as we can't actually infect them with existential dread, I guess we'll just have to kill them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 9:21 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 11-14-2015 11:57 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 508 (772450)
11-14-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:16 AM


Faith writes:
We must pretend these are truly refugees and give up everything for them....
Our new government is looking at incoming refugees as an opportunity, not a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:20 PM ringo has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(5)
Message 24 of 508 (772451)
11-14-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
11-14-2015 8:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
Cut the money supply. But how?
Cut the propaganda chain. But how?
Solve the Middle East territory dispute pertaining to Israel and Palestine. But how?
End the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. But how?
End the notion that all of this is Gods will. But how?
I honestly don't think the solution lies in the Western Nations. I think this has to be something that the Muslim and Arabic nations rally around. I understand the complexity of Middle East politics and the internal divisions in Islam, but ultimately, someone needs to emerge in that culture that rallies the moderate and more modern people into taking action.
My concern is that if this once again turns into a situation whereby the Western powers step in, all that will happen is the bad guys will scatter like roaches the moment the military shows up in significant numbers and simply disappear into the main populace. And we will once again be viewed as the 'invaders'.
Like Tangle indicated, you can't solve this problem until you start getting people in those cultures to begin thinking more progressively and not fixate on the more barbaric aspects of what their religion advocates. It happened in Europe during the Renaissance but it took generations to achieve.
The scary part is we have a situation now where these crazies have 12th century backward views of how the world should operate but have access to 20th and 21st century weapons. Scary thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Straggler, posted 11-14-2015 8:21 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 508 (772452)
11-14-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
11-14-2015 5:56 AM


Whats so super about superstition?
Tangle writes:
PEOPLE do these things; superstitious people deluded by fanatical religious belief.
I just heard about it this morning---been busy working and dealing with the holiday rush at the grocery store.
I browsed the media and found a good article on the summation---What ISIS Really Wants
Some notable quotes from the article:
The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategyand for how to stop it.(...)
Our ignorance of the Islamic State is in some ways understandable: It is a hermit kingdom; few have gone there and returned.(...)We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger ofand headline player inthe imminent end of the world.
Given that last statement, I can fully understand your logical reaction to extremist religion in general.
The fundamentalist Christians, of whom I know and associate with, will be ill advised to see this as a beginning of the end. Logic, reason, and reality will be needed in large measure to defeat this enemy.
I agree with you, Tangle in that this madness must stop.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2015 5:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 508 (772453)
11-14-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:16 AM


Halt the immigration? Prudent??? But but but that would be racist!!!! That wouldn't be politically correct!!! No no no we must let more of them in. We must pretend these are truly refugees ...
Y'know, I really think some of them are. 'Cos, y'know, there are many people who don't like being beheaded.
and give up everything for them ....
You gave up everything for them? Well, that was very noble of you. Some might say excessive. I haven't given up anything.
... and pretend it's just a tiny minority of .... well somebody else I guess... that's doing the bombing. And the raping too that's going on all over Europe.
Of course it's a tiny minority, Faith. That's just math. You count the number of Muslims blowing stuff up, you divide by the number of Muslims. This is not really arguable.
We must give up our own living spaces for them
You've had to move out of your house so refugees could move in? I'm so sorry. Or when you say "living space", are you perhaps thinking of a slightly less personal and more abstract concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 27 of 508 (772454)
11-14-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
11-14-2015 8:49 AM


Re: A Few Details
Faith writes:
The only solution is sending them all back where they came from. Really. And keep armed and ready against them.
How unspeakably Christian. I can see your muscular Jesus now, turning refugee families away, back to the wastelands we helped make of Iraq, Libya and Syria, suffering the little children to die. His Dad will sort them out.
When they see they haven't the power to execute Allah's will they become docile. But you have to force them into that position.
Why, they sound like poorly trained dogs! Or the Muslim men who were tortured with stress positions et al. in American prisons in Iraq...
That regimen hasn't worked in Afghanistan after centuries of effort; they're regularly bombed back to the stone age, yet, like Vietnam, have managed to humiliate multiple empires. We in the west continue to inherit the whirlwind our ancestors sowed in the 19th and 20th centuries.
News Flash: People don't really become docile because they have a boot on their necks.
Questions:
Once you screen out Muslims by race and national origin, how else do you stop Muslims at the border?
In the absence of Muslims, what causes terrorism in other parts of the world?
Modern Israel was founded in part due to pressure from Jewish terror campaigns. Should we have forced them into docility instead?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 8:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 28 of 508 (772456)
11-14-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:16 AM


Response?
Faith writes:
We must pretend these are truly refugees and give up everything for them and pretend it's just a tiny minority of .... well somebody else I guess... that's doing the bombing. And the raping too that's going on all over Europe. We must give up our own living spaces for them.
As Christians, we need to do as jesus would have done....not what a patriotic global empires responses might be.
POGO aptly said that we have met the enemy and he is us.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(4)
Message 29 of 508 (772457)
11-14-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
11-14-2015 10:45 AM


Re: A Few Details
ISIS do think that. But I am with Percy in the sense that such an extreme ideology wouldn't appeal to so many if it weren't for the fact so many effectively have lost hope to the point that platitudes like "violence solves nothing" are laughable. When it comes down to it what else is there but to rise up without regard for your life if you don't consider the future worth living? If I were a young Palestinian man I think I might very well resort to violence as what else could I do to change the situation?
Throw in some religious fanaticism and ancient grudges on top of that "fuck it there is nothing to live for despair" and you've got suicide bombers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 10:45 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 30 of 508 (772458)
11-14-2015 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-14-2015 9:30 AM


The problem is in our beliefs.
Faith writes:
The problem is that Islam is an ideology that preaches violence and death against outsiders. THAT is the problem. Any other analysis is only going to prolong the problem.
I totally disagree.
Would you like to be labled---as a Christian---based on the ideology of David Koresh?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 9:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2015 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:30 PM Phat has replied

  
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