The First Questions In The Bible

C'mon Elohim didn't say "I'll kill you".
He said "You'll die" You guys...

I'll remind you again that this is Bible Study, not Make-Up-Whatever-You-Feel-Like. If there's something about "the attainable form of Godliness" or "the incomprehensible mystery of “Godliness” that gives Life" in Genesis 3, by all means quote the verses. Otherwise, it's off topic. Again, that's the whole point: they didn't have to choose the "way of the serpent" - i.e. making their own choices instead of blindly obeying. They didn't have to choose the "way of the guy-who-claimed-to-be-God" either. They had free will. That's a very good point. Later on in the Bible, notably the Book of Job, there's another character called "Satan" who's God's prosecutor, God's employee. If you were going to equate the serpent with Satan (even though that would be hard to support Biblically), you could think of the serpent as a servant of God. You could speculate that he was sent by God to plant the seed of doubt in Adam and Eve's minds. You could suggest that the whole incident was God's plan to see if the free-will feature was working.That would be a speculation that's within the parameters of the story.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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i wasn't referring to that, i was referring to the litany of punishments at the end of genesis 3. well, the question of the implication is a valid one.

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Perhaps God didn't mean to kill anyone?He certainly didn't trade in one punishment for another. He banished Adam and Eve as a preventive measure, not a punishment. Even so, to extract any literal meaning or significance from the Bible in our day, a literal death does not cut it. Supposing you believe in the Bible, and believe that the Tree of Life is a symbol of something 'real', then unless we know what that something is, we can't discover the kind of death or impact it will have on us when we 'eat' from it.

which then leads to their eventual deaths, of course. he also puts a number of other punishment on mankind (and on snakes, too). "our day" is irrelevent. the question i'm more interested in is "what did the authors mean when they wrote it?" from the meaning in THAT day, we can extrapolate IF and how a story has meaning and significance to us, today. i do not see any point in reading the story through anachronistic eyes, reinventing it as we go to suit our needs.perhaps this comes from a need to find some kind of truth in the text, some validity, some inspiration of the divine. whereas i actually couldn't care less -- i'd rather let the facts and the texts speak for themselves. if we don't like what they have to say, well, it's not a big deal. certainly not a big enough to try to apologize for it. the text tells us: eternal life.i don't mean to be condescending or anything, but the symbology in genesis isn't particularly complicated. it's not heavily ladden in complex metaphors, like ezekiel or revelation. it more or less says things flat out.

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Banishment leads to eventual death? I am still not inclined to see the banishment as a punishment, just a necessary precaution. Well, what DID the authors mean? The thing which strikes me about Genesis is that it is so 'sensible' in some ways, telling just-so stories and providing mythical origins for simple concepts like why we wear clothes or how we got here...and then in the middle of that there is this strange 'Tree of Life' that seemingly has no parallel in the 'real' world or no bearing on the rest of the tale of 'how things got here'. I have no need to find some truth. Although it is not better at all in the eyes of others, I simply have a belief that there is some truth to find, rather than a need to find it. That does not render me incapable of examining the original intent, but it is the same with all myths to me. There is some kernel of truth in them, some reflection of the perceptions of life at the time. I do not know what the Tree of Life represented then, in fact I don't know what the Knowledge of Good and Evil meant then either. It may not be complex symbology, but it is symbology nonetheless, which is still clouded in the mists of time. The difference in outlook can be explained not so much as inspired/not inspired, but as meaningful/dead. I don't find Genesis meaningful as 'the only recorded and true history of the origins of life', hell no, but as a Christian I believe it contains important symbology at least so far as origins of our faith.That being said, if a book WAS inspired, then dang all of the authors' intent. What kind of death was God talking about?

The process of differentiation between good and evil without immortality, or immortality without the process of differentiation?Take this w/ a grain of salt...Elohim didn’t ever even imply He would kill Adam and Eve. Just that He was sure they would die if they did what He advised against. Elohim understands separation from His absolute wisdom leads to corruption which leads to death.Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, or, created possessing God’s absolute knowledge instinctually without need for a process of differentiation. They had the egg before the chicken. Divinity of sorts. They were created in Elohim’s image, who seems to have all of the differences worked out; that is, God has finished the process of differentiation between good and evil and He resides in that wisdom . the absolutes of good. God seperated the light from the dark using the absolutes of good. Elohim originally created us with this wisdom. We resided in it with Him. Elohim cannot reside outside of this wisdom. Nobody without it can reside with Him.The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil. A separation from God's wisdom. In other words, Adam and Eve had a choice of the self-process of differentiation between good and evil without immortality, or immortality with God’s absolute wisdom instinctually. The self-process of differentiation between good and evil immediately started causing people to kill each other . (ex. jealousy, murder, war, blah, blah, blah . see Cain and Abel).Hence, the self-process of differentiation between good and evil leads to bodily death. It also leads to "spiritual death", or absence of God's wisdom that God and we resided in together. God didn’t support the tree of knowledge of good and evil because He knew the process that ensued would lead to death (corruption) and separation from the tree of life (God's absolute wisdom).Just some thoughts...

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I am familiar with the traditional take on the tale. For myself, I lean towards the spiritual death scenerio when I think about this scripture. I don't know that it says anything about immortality.What tends to provoke my comment in otherwise played out topics, is the continual 'God is a liar' claim from people who say they only want to read the books as ancient stories. If that is true, then the story is pretty clear about who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, even tho the story sure portrays God as lying, or at least wrong compared to the serpent. In pure story telling, it's an inconsistancy, a loose end.You have to assume that these people were lousy at telling stories, not detail oriented, copied wrong, remembered wrong, something of that nature. OR they were not concerned with the 'honesty' of God, but moreso with His power.'God lied' is not the intent of the story, IMO. So one can either take the whole thing with a grain of salt and realize we will never know the 'true, original' intent based on some manuscripts from centuries later, or we can act on blind faith all around about the providential preservation of something important.

When God creates the universe - he knows every action in the universe upon til the end of the universe before he creates it. Therefore any actions in the universe are a direct result of the how god created the universe and therefore there is no freewill and no actions occur that are not a direct result of how he creates the universe. Well unless he makes the creation event random and does not know how it will all turn out until he creates it but if he does not know how it will all turn out then he is not god and did not create the universe.In short - it's a made-up story.

I think I agree with you.
The spiritual death occured when we removed ourselves from God's absolute wisdom...Elohim originally created us with this wisdom. We resided in it with Him. We were alive with God spiritually. Elohim cannot reside outside of this wisdom. Nobody without it can reside with Him.
I see an inference to a physical and spiritual death in Genesis.These manuscripts were copied carefully throughout centuries. Very few mistakes were made I would think.Elohim has no inclination to lying.Elohim's nature and character is continually misrepresented by Moses, who SAW God( ex. Numbers 20:8-12...EVC link...message 41)...how much more will it be with anyone else?

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Except of course, there is NOTHING in the story even hinting at spiritual death and it most certainly does speak of immortality as the very reason God becomes fearful and kicks them out.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You keep saying that. Yet you run away from the fact that God Himself acknowledged that Adam and Eve had become more like Him, not less.Debate in good faith. Address the issue or drop your claims about "removing ourselves".

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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In addition, there are no indications in the GOE story of separation between God and Man. Adam and Eve were run out of the Garden, but nowhere does it say anything about becoming separated from God. In fact, the Garden is not shown as a dwelling place for God, God simply comes and goes, and continues to have direct contact with man throughout the Bible.The separation is NOT from God, but rather from the Tree of Life.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'll be the first to tell you I'm a dreamer.
Nonetheless, consider . Spiritual death is not printed in the story anywhere literally, yet, the story itself hints at spiritual death to me completely. It could be compared to a parable of sorts. Elohim often conveyed insight through parable, even though they confused many people. Seems correlative here.Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand.If God knew the Tree of Life granted immortality like He says it does, yet He could care less if they ate from it originally . Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access.I am sorry if I offend you, I am not religion savvy at all.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Where is there an example of God leaving the Garden? The snake that spoke seems to represent the Tree of Knowledge...
Elohim supports consumption of the fruit of the Tree of Life. He seems to give it representation through His support.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary