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Author Topic:   accelerating/expanding universe - god?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 16 of 49 (289161)
02-21-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hunter812
02-21-2006 12:30 PM


Re: Like a balloon?
Whoa, whoa! Never, ever put too much onto an analogy. It is a way to give a VERY simplified idea NOT something to carry too far.
Analogies are ONLY explanatory devices nothing more.
Now it happens that the idea of "dark energy" may well prove to arrive at a "ripping" apart of the universe (in a few 10's of billions of years) but that has nothing to do with the balloon analogy.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 17 of 49 (289171)
02-21-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hunter812
02-21-2006 12:30 PM


Re: Like a balloon?
Is this universe expansion like a balloon? Pressure inside the balloon causes the space inside to expand. Eventually the balloon will pop. Is the universe going to pop.
According to some theories yes, I believe the central theory is called The Big Rip
What is the skin of the universe holding in the pressure?
Pressure is a funny word, but we'll stick to it. The 'fabric' of the universe is known as space-time.
? If the pressure of the universe wants to get out - like gas in a container it will find a way. Won't this cause the universe to deflate. *CRUNCH*
And this is where the pressure word becomes a problem. I don't think it works quite like this.

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eemystic
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 49 (296143)
03-17-2006 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hunter812
02-20-2006 5:25 PM


THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
Hi,
Have a look at the below article, it may help you to go further in your research, I think you are on the right way.
Don't be scared of the results, and it is not essential that you convert to any religion, the most important is that you find the truth and that, even if it does not please certain persons.
Human Dignity : Returning to the Righteous rather than continuing in the falshood.
Take care!
THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html
In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."
At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.
From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.
This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. During these observations, Hubble established that the stars emit a light that turns redder according to their distance. That is because according to the known laws of physics, light heading towards a point of observation turns violet, and light moving away from that point assumes a more reddish hue. During his observations, Hubble noted a tendency towards the colour red in the light emitted by stars. In short, the stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.
In order to gain a clearer understanding of this, let us imagine the universe to be the surface of a balloon being inflated. In the same way that the more the balloon is inflated, the further away the points on its surface move from one another, celestial bodies also move away from one another as the universe expands. This was theoretically discovered by Albert Einstein, regarded as one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. However, in order to avoid violating the "static universe model" that was generally accepted at that time, Einstein laid that discovery aside. He would later describe this as the greatest blunder of his life. 2
This fact was explained in the Qur'an in a time when telescopes and similar technological advancements were not even close to being invented. This is because the Qur'an is the Word of Allah: the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe.

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 Message 1 by Hunter812, posted 02-20-2006 5:25 PM Hunter812 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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watzimagiga
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 49 (314814)
05-24-2006 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by eemystic
03-17-2006 7:21 AM


Re: THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
Hi,
This is my first post on this site. I have been reading for a while now but I wanted to get involved.
the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed.
The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.
I was reading about this recently, and I was under the impression that the universe is currently expanding at an inceasing rate and not in "constant motion". Is it not?
The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe.
I am completly confused as to how "heaven" is meant to mean "space and the wider universe". This really makes no sense to me as heaven is described as the place that "Allah" has prepared for the afterlife. On this site he seems to have just stated that heaven means this with no real reasoning. Could you provide some?

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Replies to this message:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 20 of 49 (314837)
05-24-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hunter812
02-21-2006 12:30 PM


Analogies
Easy there, now. the baloon is just an analogy. No reason to push it that far. The point of that particular analogy is just to show that something can be expanding without having a center. It is supposed to clarify your question about whether it`s possible to trace the "explosion" back to it`s starting point.

This message is a reply to:
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GreeneSound
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 49 (368754)
12-09-2006 10:54 PM


confused
I'm sorry I, but i've heard the infinite beginning theory about the big bang and it just dosn't quite make sense to me. If there never was a beginning for the big bang how did it ever happen. You can't wait an eternity for the big bang to occur, we should still be waiting.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 22 of 49 (368775)
12-10-2006 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by GreeneSound
12-09-2006 10:54 PM


Re: confused
I think I understand your confusion, but there's two ways it can go.
1) you would be right in certain circumstances. But imagine a big bang type theory where the expansion rate is tied to a variable, R say. Now a theory where R=0 for an infinite amount of time, then suddenly R>0 would admittedly be very odd, and something of a "something from nothing". But what about where R is something of a formula like R=e^t. From t=-infinity to 0, R varies from 0 to 1 - hardly does anything.... then from t=0 upwards, R explodes... exponentially
So we would decribe the beginning of the universe (the big bang) as around t=0, despite the universe being infinitely old.
2) perhaps you are confused on how a universe that is infinitely old could ever arrive at any time, because any time (say today) would require an infinite amount of time to pass in order to reach today?
This is suggestive of time being "merely" a 4th dimension. There is no universal magic time variable or clock that counts through time. Time as we understand it is a function of conciousness. We experience time in that part of the universe (space and time) in which we inhabit. Ouside of our experience, time does not tick along. All of time just is, in the same way that we consider all of space at any one time.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Confidence, posted 12-10-2006 5:55 PM cavediver has replied

  
Confidence
Member (Idle past 6318 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 23 of 49 (368852)
12-10-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by cavediver
12-10-2006 7:22 AM


throw away the big bang
Why stick with the big bang theory, go with the Humphrey's cosmology. Which also includes the expansion of space time. But the universe has a center and a edge, and a beginning.

Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator. In most modern scientists this belief has died: it will be interesting to see how long their confidence in uniformity survives it. Two significant developments have already appeared”the hypothesis of a lawless sub-nature, and the surrender of the claim that science is true. We may be living nearer than we suppose to the end of the Scientific Age.’
*
Lewis, C.S., Miracles: a preliminary study, Collins, London, p. 110, 1947.

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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 24 of 49 (368856)
12-10-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Confidence
12-10-2006 5:55 PM


Re: throw away the big bang
Confidence writes:
Why stick with the big bang theory, go with the Humphrey's cosmology. Which also includes the expansion of space time. But the universe has a center and a edge, and a beginning.
Is the Earth the center of the universe in your cosmology? That's sure an old story!

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 25 of 49 (368860)
12-10-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Confidence
12-10-2006 5:55 PM


Re: throw away the big bang
Why stick with the big bang theory, go with the Humphrey's cosmology
Because:
1) Humphrey's cosmology (original) has pathological problems, such as exposed Kleinian regions, which render the space-time unphysical and unusable. This was pointed out to Humphrey.
2) Humphrey's cosmology (revised becasue of the above) doesn't actually have the (Biblically relevant) features he originally claimed, so is a bit of a waste of time. This doesn't stop him from continuing to push his cosmology as somehow relevant to the Creationist agenda.
3) Humphrey's cosmology (either version) is contradicted by observation, is unaesthetic, and completely unscientific (in conception).
That's enough for the moment.
Cavediver (relativist, cosmologist, err... cavediver)

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 49 (370140)
12-16-2006 1:24 AM


"Hunter812" writes:
It appears in 1998 after 10 or so years of studying Supernova's folks...
Maybe, we would've been better off studying Supernova himself, as oposed to his ma 'n' pa?
I couldn't resist
J0N

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 49 (370163)
12-16-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Confidence
12-10-2006 5:55 PM


Other Problems
It also lacks a metric, a very basic requirement for checking the dynamics of any cosmological model.
Edited by Son Goku, : Change of tags

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Ingvar
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 49 (373103)
12-30-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by watzimagiga
05-24-2006 6:40 AM


Re: THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
It is not the universe that is expanding.
It is the radiation that is displaced during acceleration towards longer wavelengths.
This is called redshift and is misinterpreted as a doppler-effect.
But the radiations acceleration is caused by the entropy-effect that forces the energy towards equilibrium.
Se my experiments and derivations on
The Unified Theory of Physics

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 29 of 49 (373134)
12-30-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by eemystic
03-17-2006 7:21 AM


Re: THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
Interesting that the word we who have constructed the heaven and it is We who are steadily expanding it. The Christian bible too agrees that the Word was in the beginning with the Father and all things were made through the Word who is Jesus Christ.
The Word says that Job answered rightfully in respect to God. kjv Job 42:7 Job said in respect to the expanding universe that God alone is responsible. Job 9:7-10.
The Quran interestingly agree's with the Word that God is "We" which agrees with the Christian Trinity. Jesus is then the true light of the true light of the true light. If the Quran believes that God is "WE" then Muslims should have no problem with Jesus Christ being God the Son and through him the entire universe came into being.
Given we both believe that God alone is responsible for the expanding universe. Then to us this black energy evolutionists call this supernatural energy is actually the true light of God alone.
The Evolutionists believe its some kind of supernatural energy because they can not answer a problem how space and time (distance) between the galaxies could violate Einsteins general theory of relativity.
This supernatural energy (black energy)that violates lights speed is actually in agreement not with the theory of relativity but with the book of Job that God alone is responsible and the "We" in the Quran (true light of true light of true light). I find it interesting the Jesus Christ is true light a gift from his Father to anyone that believes that we in him (Christians)become one with Christ who is one of the "We" that the Quran says is responsible for the supernatural expansion of the heavens that to date has no other explanation other than black energy being a force greater than general relativity.
Edited by Charley, : No reason given.
Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 30 of 49 (373172)
12-31-2006 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by johnfolton
12-30-2006 11:26 PM


Re: THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
Interesting that the word we who have constructed the heaven and it is We who are steadily expanding it. The Christian bible too agrees that the Word was in the beginning with the Father and all things were made through the Word who is Jesus Christ.
Of course, it doesn't say 'it is We Who are steadily expanding it.', that is an English translation of the Arabic. Does it mean expanding in the same way as 'the universe is expanding?' - let's look at some other translations:
quote:
051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
The next verse continues:
quote:
051.048
YUSUFALI: And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
PICKTHAL: And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!
SHAKIR: And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
which is reminiscent of Isaiah 42:51
quote:
This is what God the LORD says”
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
The Quran interestingly agree's with the Word that God is "We" which agrees with the Christian Trinity.
The Qur'an throughly rejects the Trinity. The 'We' is a royal We.
This supernatural energy (black energy)that violates lights speed is actually in agreement not with the theory of relativity but with the book of Job that God alone is responsible and the "We" in the Quran (true light of true light of true light).
The Dark energy responsible for inflation doesn't violate relativity. Indeed relativity helped us realize that gravity doesn't always need to be attractive. Where pressure is negative, it become repulsive (the first application of this idea was Einstein's cosmological constant). If the negative pressure is strong enough then gravity will become repulsive. A Higgs field can, under certain conditions, contribute uniform negative pressure2. It's very fascinating, but incredibly difficult to get across in a short forum post, but the point is that there is no relativity violation going on, relativity is being employed to describe these things!.


1The Qur'an and the Big Bang, Dr. Abdul-Kalaam Pangloss
2The Fabric of the Cosmos, Brian Greene
Edited by Modulous, : added references

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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