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Author Topic:   our little cousins may join us someday...
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 20 (386574)
02-22-2007 12:47 PM


BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Chimpanzees 'hunt using spears'
Chimpanzees 'hunt using spears'
Chimpanzees in Senegal have been observed making and using wooden spears to hunt other primates, according to a study in the journal Current Biology.
Researchers documented 22 cases of chimps fashioning tools to jab at smaller primates sheltering in cavities of hollow branches or tree trunks.
The report's authors, Jill Pruetz and Paco Bertolani, said the finding could have implications for human evolution.
Chimps had not been previously observed hunting other animals with tools.
Pruetz and Bertolani made the discovery at their research site in Fongoli, Senegal between March 2005 and July 2006.
"There were hints that this behavior might occur, but it was one time at a different site," said Jill Pruetz, assistant professor of anthropology at Iowa State University, US.
"While in Senegal for the spring semester, I saw about 13 different hunting bouts. So it really is habitual."
hunting => cooperative hunting => agriculture => leisure => civilization
maybe they'll catch up.

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AdminSchraf
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Message 2 of 20 (386592)
02-22-2007 3:09 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 20 (386598)
02-22-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
02-22-2007 12:47 PM


cooperative hunting => agriculture
Biggest step, IMO.
That's gonna be a tough one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-22-2007 12:47 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 4 of 20 (386604)
02-22-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
02-22-2007 3:27 PM


well. i missed a few steps, i think.
it's probably more like
cooperative hunting => group living => basic seasonal/nomadic settlement => permanent settlement => increased reliance on local plant sources => agriculture

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 20 (386625)
02-22-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
02-22-2007 12:47 PM


hunting => cooperative hunting => agriculture => leisure => civilization
This has already happened 50 to 100 million years ago with several insect species. For example, the leaf cutter ants of brazil breed and raise aphids (animal husbandry, they even produce antibiotics to protect the aphids from molds), feeding them processed leaf mash and then milking them for nutritional dew. The ants, of course, also have a complex societal structure and civilization. Not sure in which order these behaviors developed, but they did it all using a fraction of their 100,000 neurons (I'm equally unsure how many neurons the typical human farmer or rancher uses.). Don't want to be around when they first split the atom (the ants, not the human farmers.) Seems us primates, troglodytes and otherwise, are a little slow on the uptake.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 6 of 20 (386637)
02-22-2007 6:10 PM


Planet of the Apes!
I don't know. Most theories of the evolution of human intelligence require really unusual and unique conditions, such as a drought at just the right time (creating thirst, perhaps leading to the evolution of planning for the future), and creating fire thereafter (to keep people together at night, and perhaps leading to creativity).

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 7 of 20 (386642)
02-22-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy
02-22-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Planet of the Apes!
and creating fire thereafter (to keep people together at night, and perhaps leading to creativity).
Interesting, Doddy. I've always wondered about the role of fire in human evolution besides the often touted use in cooking meat and usage in hunting.
I would think that fire not only kept people together at night, but also just kept people up and allowed the downtime that naturally comes at night (when hunting and foraging is pointless) to be utilized in new ways.
Could you point me in the direction of any research on this (preferably on the internet, but books are good, too)?

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 8 of 20 (386643)
02-22-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy
02-22-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Planet of the Apes!
well, and then there's always the sexual side of it. some people have hypothesized that powerful brains are sexy. guess who gets laid more often, thus with more kids?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 20 (386659)
02-22-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by kuresu
02-22-2007 6:22 PM


Re: Planet of the Apes!
... some people have hypothesized that powerful brains are sexy.
Clever creative brains. The size just came for the ride.
Who's sexier - pop band leader or nobel prize winner?

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 10 of 20 (386695)
02-23-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jaderis
02-22-2007 6:22 PM


Re: Planet of the Apes!
Jaderis writes:
Could you point me in the direction of any research on this (preferably on the internet, but books are good, too)?
Hmm. I was just recalling something I saw in the BBC series Walking with Cavemen. You'd be in the same boat as me when it comes to finding research articles on it.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 20 (386777)
02-23-2007 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
02-22-2007 12:47 PM


When I think of a second sentient species coming around, some questions pop into my mind.
(1) Will we allow this species to coexist with us?
(2) How will we treat this race?
(3) Will we give them any room to grow?
(4) Am I going to start seeing fundies holding signs that say "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Ape"?
I recently read a science fiction novel that addresses this point. It's called A Very Ugly Little Boy by... can't remember the author. The story is about a time machine that could grab a hold of any object or being from the past and bring it here to our time for us to study. The people in charge decided to kidnap a neanderthal child to study. Throughout the story, we see that the nurse who is hired to take care of the boy is able to teach him how to talk fluently in english as well as readj, write, and do math. In other words, toward the end of the story, if you don't notice that he's physically different than other boys, you wouldn't be able to tell that he belongs to another species. The nurse is the only person that recognizes that he's a sentient being, while everyone else treats him like an animal that could talk, read, write, and do math.
It's a science fiction story, yes, but it does bring up a very good point. Given our very long violent history of slavery, cultural extermination, and genocide even though we belong to the same goddamn species, I honestly don't see how another sentient species could arise while we are still around. In fact, I predict that the threshold is learning how to use fire. If the chimps learn how to use fire, we will begin seeing extermination squads sent out to eliminate this species. Let us not forget that christians who try to justify the Israelite's extermination campaign of the Cannanites support killing 2 year old toddlers and pregnant women because they might pose a threat to "god's people" in the distant future.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 20 (386779)
02-23-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
02-23-2007 3:24 PM


i quite agree.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 20 (386783)
02-23-2007 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AnswersInGenitals
02-22-2007 5:25 PM


Pedantic Moment
For example, the leaf cutter ants of brazil breed and raise aphids (animal husbandry, they even produce antibiotics to protect the aphids from molds), feeding them processed leaf mash and then milking them for nutritional dew.
Erm, I think you may be confusing leaf cutters (mostly Atta species) with a whole pile of aphid "tenders", from fire ants to japanese meadow ants. Leaf cutters mulch leaves to grow fungus, which they eat. They do produce an antifungal agent that prevents any other type fungus from growing. It appears that each species - and possibly each nest - cultivates its own version of fungus - and when a queen starts a new nest, she takes a chunk of the old fungus with her. Leafcutters are literally everywhere in the neotropics, not just Brazil.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 20 (386807)
02-23-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
02-23-2007 3:24 PM


try Ugly Little Boy by (of course) Isaac Asimov.
quote:
This expanded version of the late Asimov's classic 1958 tale is a collaborative effort that surpasses the original. There are no plot surprises; the authors have retained the basic story of an alien four-year-old child who is kidnapped from his time zone and brought into a future world. Yet this is a fresh and satisfying version, primarily because the characters have been made richer, the depiction of 21st-century society rounded out and the history of the Neanderthal tribe from which the eponymous boy was abducted more fully given. When the woebegone waif, now named Timmie, was snatched from his epoch, he was brought into a pool of no-time, which exists coincident with the present. Since Timmie is condemned to living within that pool forever, his presence raises moral questions: Is it abusive to leave him alone in this limbo for eternity? Would it be equally cruel to send him back to the Ice Age? Asimov ( Foundation ) and Silverberg ( Lord Valentine's Castle ) explore these issues in an intriguing story supported by seamless writing.
I believe I have it ... somewhere ... (looks at boxes of science fiction books stacked in corner of apt ...)
(1) Will we allow this species to coexist with us?
(2) How will we treat this race?
(3) Will we give them any room to grow?
(4) Am I going to start seeing fundies holding signs that say "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Ape"?
Much more likely than time transport is to actually create a genetic clone neander(DNA)\chimp(mtDNA\mom) ... but even that is science fiction so far.
How will our cousins be treated if they learn to make fire?
No better than our brothers in Darfur eh?
Provided of course that humans still exist ...

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 20 (386864)
02-24-2007 10:20 AM


ON THE AIR NOW SAT 24 FEB 10:20 AM
http://64.71.145.107/online/play.php?xml=897.xml
talking about this

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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