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Author Topic:   Unintelligent design (recurrent laryngeal nerve)
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 421 of 480 (568224)
07-04-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by ICdesign
07-04-2010 8:57 PM


Re: burden of proof
I say the burden is on the evolutionist to show how an unthinking source was able to come up with all the genius systems within the human body.
By natural selection and random mutation.
All the best,
Crash
P.S. It only seems like genius because you don't know how it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 8:57 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 11:37 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 426 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:03 AM crashfrog has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 422 of 480 (568227)
07-04-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by ICdesign
07-04-2010 8:57 PM


Re: burden of proof
Lets start here Mr. Evolutionist. You explain how all these deeply intelligent systems evolved step by step. And I'm at the edge of my seat to find out how all this evolved each slow, step by step, over a long period of time when they all have to be present and working together for the body to survive for even one instant. How do you get by this all or nothing scientific fact?
That's easy. Here is a nice online lecture that shows how these genetic networks are robust, and not at all as creationists describe:
Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture)
Description: Mathematical computer models of two ancient and famous genetic networks act early in embryos of many different species to determine the body plan. Models revealed these networks to be astonishingly robust, despite their 'unintelligent design.' This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 8:57 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 11:41 PM Coyote has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 423 of 480 (568228)
07-04-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by crashfrog
07-04-2010 10:49 PM


Re: burden of proof
I want to see the proof Crash. None of the questions I posed were answered. Show me the documented, OBSERVED proof that natural selection and random mutation created complex systems.
IC
P.S. It looks like genius design because it IS genius design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by crashfrog, posted 07-04-2010 10:49 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2010 12:14 AM ICdesign has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 424 of 480 (568229)
07-04-2010 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Coyote
07-04-2010 11:32 PM


Re: burden of proof
Where did the mathematical computer models come from? Did they evolve on their own without intelligent help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Coyote, posted 07-04-2010 11:32 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Coyote, posted 07-04-2010 11:57 PM ICdesign has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 425 of 480 (568230)
07-04-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by ICdesign
07-04-2010 11:41 PM


Re: burden of proof
Where did the mathematical computer models come from? Did they evolve on their own without intelligent help?
Did you watch the video?
Did you even consider watching the video?
Or do you just know it's all wrong without watching it?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 11:41 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:09 AM Coyote has not replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 426 of 480 (568231)
07-05-2010 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by crashfrog
07-04-2010 10:49 PM


Re: burden of proof
I am tired of this Richard Dawkins dodging the bullit, smoke and mirrors horsecrap. "It only appears to be intelligent design".
Non of you can answere this straight question with a straight answer.
IF THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT GENIUS DESIGN THEN PLEASE GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER A GENIUS DESIGN TO BE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by crashfrog, posted 07-04-2010 10:49 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2010 12:21 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 431 by DrJones*, posted 07-05-2010 12:23 AM ICdesign has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 427 of 480 (568232)
07-05-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Coyote
07-04-2010 11:57 PM


Re: burden of proof
I know its a scientific FACT that the human body cannot exist unless all of its vital systems are fully developed and working in harmony from the beginning
Thats what I know!!!
I know any computer along with ALL computer programs were designed by an intelligent mind!
Thats what I know!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Coyote, posted 07-04-2010 11:57 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2010 12:23 AM ICdesign has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 428 of 480 (568233)
07-05-2010 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by ICdesign
07-04-2010 11:37 PM


Re: burden of proof
Show me the documented, OBSERVED proof that natural selection and random mutation created complex systems.
What's your definition of "complex"? I can't show you the evolution of neurology since that happened over such a long period of time. If you could identify some array of characteristics that would qualify something as "complex" then I may be able to show you in vitro evolution of such a system.
P.S. It looks like genius design because it IS genius design.
I hope you learn more about biology and the human body, so that you have the opportunity to learn how that's frequently not the case. For instance, in a genius-designed human body, human muscle cells would produce their own phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase, which would (and does, when the gene is activated in mice) result in humans being able to physically exert themselves without ever tiring and lifespans about twice as long.
But our bodies don't do that. The gene is suppressed to fairly low levels just about everywhere but the liver, which is good under conditions of starvation but suboptimal at any other time. Genius-level genetic programming would have inserted a PEP-CK regulation system that upregulated when food was plentiful and downregulated when food was scarce.
Despite fats being the most energy-dense storage in your body, your muscles can't metabolize fats directly. Genius design? I don't see it. Just about any function of the body can be improved; "just good enough to work" design is the hallmark of living systems.
And again - you've simply dismissed the systems that can't be reconciled with "genius" design. But how does that make sense? God was a genius but he outsourced the eye? God was sick and it was Nerbert the Temp who designed the laryngeal nerve? If the human body is a work of genius it should be evidence throughout. You can't just wave away the examples of truly dunderheaded design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by ICdesign, posted 07-04-2010 11:37 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:31 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 429 of 480 (568234)
07-05-2010 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:03 AM


Re: burden of proof
IF THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT GENIUS DESIGN THEN PLEASE GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER A GENIUS DESIGN TO BE.
Retinas that face the light-sensing layer out towards the front, where the light comes in; not backwards, towards the inside of the skull, with two layers of light-insensitive cells between the iris and the incoming light.
Muscles that express enough PEP-CK to metabolize fatty acid fuel sources directly.
A spine more stable for upright posture than a stack of quarters.
That's where I'd start. Like I said, the more you learn about the human body, the more you're surprised that it even works at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:03 AM ICdesign has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 430 of 480 (568235)
07-05-2010 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:09 AM


Re: burden of proof
I know its a scientific FACT that the human body cannot exist unless all of its vital systems are fully developed and working in harmony from the beginning
I think you should head down to the hospital to the chronic disease ward and be sure to tell all those people suffering from various corruptions of the vital systems that they can't possibly exist.
The truth is that "just good enough to work" is the universal quality of living organisms on Earth, just as is expected by evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:09 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:54 AM crashfrog has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 431 of 480 (568236)
07-05-2010 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:03 AM


Re: burden of proof
IF THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT GENIUS DESIGN THEN PLEASE GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER A GENIUS DESIGN TO BE.
Sure: Great white shark - Wikipedia. Can you grow to over 20ft in length and up to 5000lbs? Can you dive to 4000ft below the ocean unasisted? Can you live in the water your entire life, filitering the oxygen you need to breather from the water around you? I thought not.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:03 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:35 AM DrJones* has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 432 of 480 (568237)
07-05-2010 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by crashfrog
07-05-2010 12:14 AM


Re: burden of proof
The arrogance of man is despicable. "If God were as smart as me he would have designed it like such and so".
I refer you back to post 420.
As usual you never answer any of my questions. WHAT is an example of an intelligent design Crash?
WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?
My body is amazing oh Lord and I thank you for designing it so I can comfortably live on this earth you created for us. Thank you for all the cool taste buds you gave me and all the wonderful flavors to enjoy with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2010 12:14 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2010 12:36 AM ICdesign has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 433 of 480 (568238)
07-05-2010 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by DrJones*
07-05-2010 12:23 AM


Re: burden of proof
No but I can drive my Vet at over a 100mph through the mountians.
Lets see a Great White do that. Lets see him go on line and communicate with others all around the world...don't get me started...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by DrJones*, posted 07-05-2010 12:23 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by DrJones*, posted 07-05-2010 12:41 AM ICdesign has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 434 of 480 (568239)
07-05-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:31 AM


Re: burden of proof
WHAT is an example of an intelligent design Crash?
WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?
I feel like I just gave some. Could you explain what was insufficient about them? Otherwise it just seems like you're ignoring the arguments you don't know how to respond to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:31 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:42 AM crashfrog has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 435 of 480 (568240)
07-05-2010 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:35 AM


Re: burden of proof
No but I can drive my Vet at over a 100mph through the mountians
You need assitance to travel? the great white can travel the world all on his own.
Lets see him go on line and communicate with others all around the world.
Lets see you hop into the ocean naked and unarmed and be at the top of the food chain.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:35 AM ICdesign has not replied

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