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Author Topic:   Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 91 of 300 (392260)
03-30-2007 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by CTD
03-30-2007 12:11 AM


Re: I'm on topic
I contend that there are dozens, nay hundreds of issues it is foolish to go about doubting. So teach me, if you can. Convince me that confidence is never warranted, or grant that some issues aren't worthy of doubt. Perhaps we can make progress from there.
At the risk of incurring Admin wrath, let me ask one of unshakable confidence. Which Bible version is closest to the autographs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 12:11 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 2:41 AM Nighttrain has not replied
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CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 92 of 300 (392263)
03-30-2007 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
03-30-2007 12:35 AM


Trivialize?
Ringo writes:
I never said that.
Some issues are worthy of doubt. The question still remains: Are you so afraid of doubt that you have to trivialize the important issues?
What's this 'trivial' business? Breathing isn't trivial; it's essential to life. Same can be said of the gospel, because it's even more important.
I don't consider it proper to doubt or not based on how important at thing is. I think doubt comes into play based on certainty and confidence issues.
In some cases doubt is involuntary. Unlike respect, I've found that in some cases I can induce doubt where it has no business existing. For example, I can work up a good deal of worry about friends and family traveling in bad weather. It doesn't help matters at all, and worry is addictive.
If one chooses to indulge in silly/trivial/foolish/unwarranted (pick a term; they all apply) doubt about spiritual matters, one could have problems. I plan to discuss this a little later on.
But let's look at the flip side. If doubt and worry are to be based not on certainty, but on how important things are, huh? Then how are the scoffers going to cope?
Eternity is a very long time, longer than I can imagine. So long that the slightest amount of comfort or discomfort you can imagine will eventually outweigh anything that can be felt in one's lifetime. If importance were the criteria for doubt, it seems they should be very concerned. Or are they afraid to doubt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 03-30-2007 12:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 03-30-2007 2:04 AM CTD has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 300 (392264)
03-30-2007 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by CTD
03-30-2007 1:45 AM


Re: Trivialize?
CTD writes:
What's this 'trivial' business? Breathing isn't trivial; it's essential to life.
Your talk about doubting breathing trivializes the importance of doubt. Breathing is certain but there is nothing certain in Christianity and that is what we are talking about. When we are uncertain, doubt is safer than blind acceptance.
If doubt and worry are to be based not on certainty....
Why do you pair up doubt and worry? The courage to doubt can be very liberating rather than worrisome.
... but on how important things are, huh? Then how are the scoffers going to cope?
I'm a scoffer and I'm coping very well, thank you. I don't have to call the head office for permission to doubt. I don't have to fall back on, "I was only following orders."

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 1:45 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
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CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 94 of 300 (392265)
03-30-2007 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nighttrain
03-30-2007 1:37 AM


I'm on topic anyway!
At the risk of incurring Admin wrath, let me ask one of unshakable confidence. Which Bible version is closest to the autographs?
As this is in reply to my post, I think you mean me. My confidence has been shaken in the past, and it could happen again. Given time, I expect it shall. Unless you refer to my confidence in the Lord.
And in answering I have the unexpected opportunity to discuss something I mentioned earlier. I have had access to a handful of English language interpretations, and so far I have found the 'King James' Bible superior to the others.
A 'pet' idea of mine is that God may have inspired this translation just as He inspired the original authors. Or the Holy Spirit may have supervised the process to ensure accuracy. As it is my own idea, it is subject to considerable doubt. In fact only this week I came upon a new passage that gives me a fresh reason to doubt this little idea.
But I find that when any other 'version' is used, I always have to look things up in the Bible I trust; so it would just be altogether impractical for me to use any other. I'd doubt everything.
Based on very good references, I did try one of the newer translations. But even with my poor memory it didn't take more than a couple of weeks to encounter some text that was just flat wrong.
One can make do with such a book, and it's probably better for those who only understand the deteriorated English of today. The Lord is aware of how things are, and no sheep will be lost over this matter. I would very much like to see a trustworthy Bible printed in contemporary English, but if it exists I am not aware of it.
Now I'm guessing there's a thread where you're thinking to dispute any answer I would have given?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Nighttrain, posted 03-30-2007 1:37 AM Nighttrain has not replied

StevieBoy
Junior Member (Idle past 6196 days)
Posts: 13
From: All over the place
Joined: 03-30-2007


Message 95 of 300 (392268)
03-30-2007 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-26-2007 5:03 PM


I don't think Christians are afraid to doubt any more than other human beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-26-2007 5:03 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 96 of 300 (392274)
03-30-2007 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by StevieBoy
03-30-2007 6:13 AM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome StevieBoy,
Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure.
The topic isn't about general doubt, but doubting or questioning one's religion or portions of it. In the case of this thread, Christianity.
As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior. Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Abide by the Forum Guidelines and you will be a welcome addition.
In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.
Please direct any questions or comments you may have to the Moderation Thread.
Again, welcome and fruitful debating. Purple

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    Larni
    Member (Idle past 164 days)
    Posts: 4000
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 97 of 300 (392275)
    03-30-2007 7:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 62 by CTD
    03-29-2007 8:16 PM


    Sorry
    I did not mean to come across the way I did.
    I appologise.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 8:16 PM CTD has not replied

    Larni
    Member (Idle past 164 days)
    Posts: 4000
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 98 of 300 (392278)
    03-30-2007 7:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
    03-30-2007 2:04 AM


    Re: Trivialize?
    Ringo writes:
    Why do you pair up doubt and worry?
    Good point: worry has a negative cognitive predictive manifestation, doubt is a state of neutral affect.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 93 by ringo, posted 03-30-2007 2:04 AM ringo has not replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 99 of 300 (392280)
    03-30-2007 7:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 89 by Rob
    03-30-2007 1:05 AM


    your scripture quotes have nothing to do with the topic. i suggest you stop addending them.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 89 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 1:05 AM Rob has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2170 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 100 of 300 (392282)
    03-30-2007 7:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 58 by CTD
    03-29-2007 7:12 PM


    Re: Say hey!
    quote:
    By definition the Christian has ruled out other gods.
    So, what do you make of the fact that the greatest determining factor that decides what religion someone follows is the religion of their parents and the culture they were raised in?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 7:12 PM CTD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by CTD, posted 03-31-2007 4:05 AM nator has replied

    sidelined
    Member (Idle past 5908 days)
    Posts: 3435
    From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
    Joined: 08-30-2003


    Message 101 of 300 (392285)
    03-30-2007 8:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 75 by Rob
    03-29-2007 10:33 PM


    Rob
    Because... there... is... no... way... to... tell... if... you... are... moving... forward...
    ...if... you... don't... know... what... you... are... looking... for...
    Have ...You.... never....just ... taken ... the...time... to... sit ...back... and... enjoy... the ...view?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 75 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 10:33 PM Rob has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 109 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 9:27 AM sidelined has replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2170 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 102 of 300 (392286)
    03-30-2007 8:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 86 by CTD
    03-30-2007 12:11 AM


    Re: I'm on topic
    There is every reason. How can you know you have the "right" answer? Don't you doubt your own infallibility?
    Once more, the topic isn't about why you "shouldn't" doubt - it's why you're afraid to doubt. All you're doing is demonstrating that you are.
    quote:
    This is great. I'm breathing. Now I'm not infallible, so I recognize that there is some strange, remote possibility I could be mistaken about this fact. Just how much time should I spend doubting that I am breathing? Hmmm? What profound insight is to be gained? How will it profit me in any way to doubt that I'm breathing, just because I'm not infallible.
    I contend that there are dozens, nay hundreds of issues it is foolish to go about doubting. So teach me, if you can. Convince me that confidence is never warranted, or grant that some issues aren't worthy of doubt. Perhaps we can make progress from there.
    But I don't think we're talking about doubt in things that can be verified by a "disinterested observer", such as if you are breathing or not. In other words, objective things.
    I think we are talking about fearing to doubt one's subjective answers, such as religious beliefs.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 12:11 AM CTD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 110 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 9:30 AM nator has replied

    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 103 of 300 (392289)
    03-30-2007 8:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
    03-27-2007 5:03 AM


    Re: Look Before You Leap
    My Topic Question: Discuss why Christians or anyone else should or should not doubt, and whether it is ever appropriate to take a stand rather than remaining ever questioning and uncommitted. Starting this topic, I perhaps should have clarified that I have taken a stand regarding the Biblical philosophies and scriptures used in my 12 step recovery program. I am not saying that the philosophy must work for everybody, but I have allowed it to work for me.
    Many of you are perhaps knowlegeable concerning the secular 12 step programs. Allow me to share the thought processes as I go step by step through this program.
    STEP 1) WE ADMITTED THAT WE WERE POWERLESS OVER OUR ADDICTIONS AND COMPULSIVE BEHAVIORS, THAT OUR LIVES HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE.
  • I was aware that my gambling addiction was something that I could no longer (if ever) turn on and off like a switch. I needed some sort of help and counseling were I to recover from this insidious habit that was eating up my finances and triggering my emotional synopsis as it left me quivering and tweaking for more of the same excitement. It was fairly easy to admit that I needed help, and I voluntarily sought such help. I did'nt have to seek a Christian program, but I have always believed that faith is a solid hope and an anchor. Which leads to Step 2:
    STEP 2) WE CAME TO BELIEVE THAT A POWER GREATER THAN OURSELVES COULD RESTORE US TO SANITY. This is where secular minds and Christian minds often part company. For me, the communion of the group and the support that a faith-based community offers was part of my healing process.
    Ironically, as I discussed the addictions, defense mechanisms, denials, and other of my human traits with other members, I was surprised to find out that many of them also visited secular recovery groups such as AA, Gamblers Anonymous, and Narcotics Anonymous.
    They informed me that they actually preferred the realism and strict accountability of the secular groups and reported that many Christians went to the secular groups instead of to the church/faith based groups due to the fact that they were ashamed to admit their problems in church. What was also mentioned was the fact that the secular accountability partners and sponsers were more demanding and hard core than were the Christian ones.
    As a Christian, I have never doubted that God exists. I have been challenged to examine my faith and answer the question as to why I do believe He exists. God knows everything about me. He is able to discern my truth from my lies. He is aware of the differences between my willful sin and my intrinsic sin nature.
    He is able to restore me or to give me the intelligence to understand myself. Some say that He expects me to grow up and not be so childlike with Him. Others believe that God expects us to rely on Him 100%. I am not sure how He feels at this point.
    STEP 3) WE MADE A DECISION TO TURN OUR LIVES AND OUR WILLS OVER TO THE CARE OF GOD. This is the step that I am on right now. Thinking about this step was one of the reasons that I wrote this topic to begin with. First, allow me to show how the secular version of this step differs in wording:
    Alcoholics Anonymous writes:
    3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
    I suppose that a fair assessment of this step would be to ask ourselves some questions:
  • Why is it necessary to turn our wills and our lives over to anything?
  • What if we choose not to believe in a Higher Power? Would the logical step then become to share our thoughts and our wills with a group of people in the hopes that we could gain insight into our addiction or our thought process?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Larni, posted 03-27-2007 5:03 AM Larni has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 104 of 300 (392296)
    03-30-2007 9:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
    03-29-2007 12:44 AM


    Topic Synopsis I
    Topic Synopsis:
    Larni writes:
    Making a leap of faith or jumping to conclusions is pointless unless you want to exist in a state where the ultimate outcome is believed to be true.
    And I contend that faith in God can be a rational option, as long as a fundamentalist apocalyptic mindset does not interfere with good old secular based critical analysis and rationality.
    purpledawn writes:
    I feel that many Christians are afraid to doubt because (1) They've been told or taught that it is wrong to question God, the Bible, preachers, etc. or (2) Their faith is based on what they've been told and if they question that info and find it to be wrong they fear a void.
    I have learned so much by examining points of view that are different from my own. This topic started, in fact, when Jar and I were discussing whether or not God is knowable in chat.
    Former Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong addressed his world view in response to a letter from a parishioner:
    Spong writes:
    Carol Ballantine from Mandeville, LA, writes:
    " When you were talking about secular humanism, you said nothing awaits a secular humanist. Were you referring to non-realism (God is not real) and the belief that this life is all the life we have? I suddenly thought of Don Cupitt. I like a lot of what he writes but absolutely cannot agree that God is not real or that we have no future in God. "
    Dear Carol ,
    I do not think you have quoted me correctly. In the lectures in Mississippi, to which you are referring, I was saying that as Christianity becomes more traditional and fundamentalist, it becomes less and less appealing to thinking people who then see human secularism as their only option.
    My point was that both biblical literalism and secular humanism are, in my mind, dead end streets in the sense that neither offers a way into a meaningful religious future. I am certain that I will line up far closer to the secular humanists than I would to the religious traditionalists. That is because the secular humanists and I live in the same world, face the same issues and raise the same questions, while the fundamentalists occupy some long passed century in most of their presuppositions.
    The secular humanists and I, however, still differ dramatically and completely in the content of our final commitment. I believe that once we break open both our ideas about God and our understandings of who Christ is and free them from the religious molds that have captured them in Christian history; we can still present both God and Christ in such a way as to attract the secular humanists into a realistic Christian future.
    Spong goes on to say that
    quote:
    While I am certain that the word "God" is a human attempt, in admittedly human language, to describe a human experience, I affirm that the experience is real. We call the God experience "otherness," "transcendence," or even "the holy." We recognize that this reality is not capable of being defined, but that inability does not make this experience unreal. ...So I stand before this undefined presence that I call God, in awe and wonder. God is real to me. I create my definitions of God, but I do not create the God experience. So I am theologically a "Realist" not a "non-Realist."
    Spongs view can also be summed up in his thesis, A Call for a New Reformation
    I wrote earlier that ...Now at EvC, some of my more liberal eclectic believing friends tell me to throw God away and not be afraid to question literally everything I have been taught.
    purpledawn writes:
    Spiritual maturity is something that you should grow into. If you are a Christian, you don't have to "dump" God. Just start trying to understand the real God and understanding what Jesus was trying to teach. Look beyond the dogma and tradition.
    Of course I agree. I think that it is rather laughable to dump a concept that is bigger than my rationality and sense of self anyway. It seems laughable to throw God away. That would be --to me--like getting rid of all the mosquitoes in a swamp or all the air molecules from the planet. My concept of God is bigger than I am. I have, of course, chosen the belief unless mysteriously He chose me!
    RiverRat writes:
    People will forever put God in a box.
    And that is human. It could be argued that my concepts are in the box known as my mind and that in a sense, everyone puts any concept ever invented (or believed) in a box.
    Larni writes:
    So we all only have faith in what we are taught: we put our spin on it through interpretation, but even that is learn't.
    Fair enough!
    Jar writes:
    How can faith be greater than understanding? If it is, then you do not understand your Faith.
    If you do not understand your faith, how can you act based on it?
    Well, its easier to believe in God if I can understand God. For me, I honestly believe that God found me. I never found Him.
    Jar writes:
    It is not that Christians are Afraid To Doubt, but rather that they are taught by the Christian Ignorance Mongers that it is wrong to doubt and that they must allow their GOD given capability of critical thinking to atrophy and fade away.
    I agree, but I think there comes certain times when you can't forever allow your critical thinking process to keep you out of the loop. As an example, take my 12 step program. As I said earlier, I am currently on Step 3. Were I a true critical thinker, I would never believe that a power greater than myself could even exist were I awaiting some visual, replicable, or testable confirmation. I suppose that I have felt a few of what Schraff calls woo-woo moments to leap to a conclusion, but some would say that I want God to exist only as a comfort zone or fall back position. (or as Jar would say, a classic cop out)
    I have seen changes in myself and others that I choose to attribute to God. I have taken a primary question and taken a stand on an answer.
    One Charred Wing writes:
    Remember, if they were born into the belief, then they were brainwashed as well, and thus most of them actually believe some of the more radical doctrines.
    I am not sure whether I would use such a term as brainwashed.
    arachnophilia writes:
    we fear (or know) in our hearts that if we question too much, it will all come crashing down.
    i question as much as i can, but i have still found lines that i will not cross.
    I contend that IF God is real, there is no way that my belief would ever come crashing down. I agree with you on the concept of boundaries, however. If a Man Does Not Stand For Something, He Will Fall For Anything! The question is what should I stand for? I believe that there is a power greater than myself. If I took away all of my woo-woo moments, I could allow myself to question His existence, but there again is a boundary that I hesitate to cross. I don't know why. (BTW folks, my woo woo moments were quite serious. I don't use the term lightly!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2007 12:44 AM arachnophilia has replied

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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3458 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 105 of 300 (392298)
    03-30-2007 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
    03-29-2007 10:39 PM


    Unknown
    Maybe they aren't afraid of doubting but are afraid of the unknown.
    Maybe they need to know or to have a guarantee of what the end of the journey is like. They want to know that they have reached "it".
    I don't feel the journey has and "end". It is continual spiritual growth.
    Some will battle with spiritual crisis when they first cross over the line. It takes some time and effort to cleanse out the false and continue forward on a clearer path.
    I don't feel that anyone has to abandon their religion when they cross over the line, but I think they will have a deeper understanding of the reality of their religion.
    Hard to explain since everyone's journey timeline will be different.
    Sadly, I don't feel that there are many people who are skilled at helping people along that journey.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
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