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Author Topic:   Defining Unconditional love
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 31 of 104 (448250)
01-12-2008 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
01-12-2008 11:02 AM


does unconditional love exist?
The whole point is in defining 'unconditional love'. Everyone has different ideas on what it is and implement it accordingly. Abuse in any way, shape or form is not unconditional love. So yes, if non-believers are condemned to eternal hell, then that is not unconditional love. It's fear-mongering in my book. "Not very nice, god, is it?"
So if the biblical 'god' doesn't practise unconditional love, how else can we know what it is? This is the purpose of this topic. We cannot turn to the bible for guidance. We need to look at our lives and the present reality of how the horror stories in the bible are being repeated because of this one major misinterpretation.
Unconditional love. We all want it but we don't know what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 11:02 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 8:27 PM pelican has replied
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-13-2008 10:47 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 32 of 104 (448267)
01-12-2008 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
01-12-2008 12:31 PM


Re: loving unconditionally no matter what
Thankyou for your obviously well thought out response. It is very informative and it's certainly taken me a while to digest it. Myself, I am a man of fewer words, so I hope you won't be offended by a shorter reply.
I believe the love you are describing is conditional love.
QUOTE :[I don't think you have to stop loving a person even when they wrong you. In Christian terms, you would still care for that person, be in prayer for that person, and wish them the best.]
How does this help or support the abuser? What is the point in loving someone this way other than to feel good about yourself? If that's the truth then no problem.
The only definition I can find in your post on unconditional love is :
QUOTE :[The unconditional love means treating people the way you would have them treat you.]
In my experience this doesn't work either. I practised this definition of unconditional love for 26yrs. I forgave and forgave for this is how I wished to be treated. I wanted forgiveness for my sins. None of us are perfect, are we?
The forgiveness did not come back. My sins were used against me and I forgave that too. In truth, neither of us loved each other unconditionally. How could we? We did not understand each other.
It seems difficult for most people to accept that the love we experience is conditional love. We even love ourselves this way. It is what it is. Why deny it?
I believe once we know this and accept it as true, then we will find the true definition of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-12-2008 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2008 11:27 AM pelican has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 104 (448279)
01-12-2008 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pelican
01-12-2008 6:10 PM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
Heinrik writes:
Unconditional love. We all want it but we don't know what it is.
For me, I have two answers.
(1) I'm not sure that I can spell out what unconditional love is, but I sure as hell know what it ain't.
(2) While I can't spell out what unconditional love is, I sure as hell know it when I see it.
It's like the difference between pornography and indecency. I know it when I see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 01-12-2008 6:10 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by pelican, posted 01-13-2008 9:55 AM Taz has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 34 of 104 (448396)
01-13-2008 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taz
01-12-2008 8:27 PM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
If you know it when you see it, then you must know what it is. It must be recognisable as a feeling or as fulfilling some criteria. Knowing what it ain't is a good step towards it but what does it leave when you remove all that it is not.
If you can show me a love without condition or judgment, I'll eat my hat.
I don't know of your life experiences, Taz, but I don't think I know the difference betwwen indecency and pornography. Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 8:27 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 01-13-2008 4:29 PM pelican has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 104 (448404)
01-13-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by pelican
01-12-2008 6:10 PM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
Heinrik writes:
Unconditional love. We all want it but we don't know what it is.
Speak for yourself.
"Unconditional love" is one of those absolutes that just doesn't exist. In your own example, you thought you loved somebody "unconditionally" but it turned out to be temporarily. The condition was, "until you screw up beyond Point X."
The best you can do is come as close to absolutely unconditional as you can. Be aware of the conditions you package with your love.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 01-12-2008 6:10 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 104 (448419)
01-13-2008 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by pelican
01-12-2008 7:26 PM


Re: loving unconditionally no matter what
Thankyou for your obviously well thought out response. It is very informative and it's certainly taken me a while to digest it. Myself, I am a man of fewer words, so I hope you won't be offended by a shorter reply.
Not at all
I believe the love you are describing is conditional love.
Maybe I believe that love means something different than you. I believe that love is a choice, not simply a fleeting emotion. Many, many people, in my opinion, wrongly equate love with feelings of strong sexual desire.
But part of the problem is likely in the English language itself. In the Greek, there are five different words for five different kinds of love.
Agape being the kind of love God has for his creation. Philo being the way that you love a sibling or a dear friend. Eros is the kind of sexual desire you might have. I can't remember the other two off-hand, but the point is that the English language has not equipped itself to defining different types of loves. Which, to me, is a bit perplexing given the obvious difference in the emotions that different kinds of love illicit in us.
quote:
I don't think you have to stop loving a person even when they wrong you. In Christian terms, you would still care for that person, be in prayer for that person, and wish them the best.
How does this help or support the abuser? What is the point in loving someone this way other than to feel good about yourself? If that's the truth then no problem.
You don't enable the abuser. By enabling them, you become a co-conspirator in your own misery. But enabling means that you are allowing them to treat you poorly because you have not stood up for yourself. However, that says nothing about loving the person, or not loving the person still.
For example: Sometimes we see a falling out occur between parents and their child who is a young adult. Suppose the son of the parents has been on all kinds of drugs, is living out a destructive lifestyle, and has become increasingly disrespectful to the rules of the parents household. At wits end, the parents say,
"We have loved you your whole life. We will continue to love you. And though this may be a hard lesson for you to learn, we are opting for some tough love with you. We will no longer enable you to ruin your life. You are of the age where we can't stop you from doing what it is you want to do. But you don't have a right to any of this in my household. You are always welcome back for support. But until you request that help from us, or get help for yourself, you may not live here."
Do the parents now "hate" their child? Or do they love him enough to instill some tough love? I know that this isn't beyond God. When I do wrong, he allows me to make my mistakes and only intervenes when I request him to. Does he not love me anymore because I have done wrong?
The only definition I can find in your post on unconditional love is :
quote:
The unconditional love means treating people the way you would have them treat you.
In my experience this doesn't work either. I practised this definition of unconditional love for 26yrs. I forgave and forgave for this is how I wished to be treated. I wanted forgiveness for my sins.
Treating people with the Golden Rule does not always make them come around. That much seems obvious because there would, in effect, be no more wars, strife, or enmity. The idea is to keep yourself pure. By staying pure, people take notice of it. You will make people hungry for the Lord by living a good life rather than telling people what to do and how to live.
None of us are perfect, are we?
Not a single one of us.
The forgiveness did not come back. My sins were used against me and I forgave that too. In truth, neither of us loved each other unconditionally. How could we? We did not understand each other.
I don't know the details of your relationship, so I can't fully comment on them. But in my own experience, couples tend to hold on to things that later become weapons. It shouldn't be, especially if someone has either been forgiven for it or if they have rectified the supposed deficiency.
There is no magic wand that is going to make people see things the way you see things every time. And you may fail 100 times. But that 1 time may make all the difference. Keep yourself pure, and by doing so, they will eventually hunger for it. We all hunger and thirst for it at some point.
It seems difficult for most people to accept that the love we experience is conditional love. We even love ourselves this way. It is what it is. Why deny it?
I believe once we know this and accept it as true, then we will find the true definition of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
We do put conditions on people to remain in a relationship. We all do that. The parameters are, don't lie to me, don't harm me, don't cheat on me, don't degrade me, etc, etc, or I will walk away. But this perhaps is the difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. There is always room to love someone -- anyone. To treat them with basic respect and dignity. But it does not mean that we have to enable them, nor must we approve of their conduct.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by pelican, posted 01-12-2008 7:26 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by pelican, posted 01-14-2008 8:37 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 104 (448450)
01-13-2008 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by pelican
01-13-2008 9:55 AM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
dameeva writes:
If you know it when you see it, then you must know what it is.
I agree. But knowing it doesn't mean you can define it in such a way that everyone else can understand it.
You should read this wiki link to see what I mean when I say "I know it when I see it".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by pelican, posted 01-13-2008 9:55 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 01-13-2008 6:37 PM Taz has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 38 of 104 (448461)
01-13-2008 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
01-12-2008 11:02 AM


Re: Don't have to be good to be loved?
Hi Taz,
If you really believe what you have written in this post.
I ache for you.
(A) God is all knowing. Yes God is all knowing.
(B) God loves me unconditionally. Where did you get this mistaken idea.
(C) God knew that I was going to turn atheist at the age of 20. Yes God knew everything about you throughout eternity.
(D) According to christians, I owe my existence to god. I don't know where the christians you talked to got their information but the last time I checked I got into this world because my father talked my mother at age 16 into having unprotected sex. God did not have anything to do with it.
(E) God specifically created me so I could exist in hell for all eternity after I'm dead.
God did not specifically create you. He created Adam and Eve.
Everybody else got here by two people having sex or artifical insimination.
I think I know what unconditional love is. I will try to give you my definition.
I love God unconditionally. I expect nothing and I trully deserve nothing but hell.
I love my Church unconditionally I expect nothing in return.
I love my wife of 50 years unconditionally. There is nothing she could do that would destroy my unconditional love. She could walk out the door today and never come back , call or anything and my love would remain unconditionally hers.
Now do I love unconditionally heck no just those three things.
Everybody else is way down on the totem pole.
I have to go to church now but when I get back I will post again.
Taz I am praying for you.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 11:02 AM Taz has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 39 of 104 (448471)
01-13-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
01-13-2008 4:29 PM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
Unconditional love clearly is subjective and without clearly defined parameters. It seems subjective to every single person who gives or recieves it. I believe it is too important an aspect of life to leave it as such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 01-13-2008 4:29 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 01-13-2008 10:50 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 40 of 104 (448475)
01-13-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by macaroniandcheese
01-11-2008 11:07 AM


Quote: [ he's not talking about blindly following a leader. ]
Isn't that what Jesus' followers did and still do? This is associated with love and maybe unconditional love on Jesus' part. How many love Jesus just because they feel he loves them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-11-2008 11:07 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2008 6:55 PM pelican has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 41 of 104 (448478)
01-13-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by pelican
01-13-2008 6:53 PM


following jesus is not a prerequisite for practicing unconditional love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by pelican, posted 01-13-2008 6:53 PM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 42 of 104 (448480)
01-13-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by pelican
01-11-2008 3:04 AM


Two sides of the coin
Dameeva, I have only just seen your idea on unconditional love. I believe everything has possible different outcomes to those expected. Unconditional love may be no exception.
You say it can be dangerous and unpredictable. Have you examples of adverse effects of the giving or receiving of unconditional love? Has anyone else suffered or experienced adverse effects of unconditional love ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by pelican, posted 01-11-2008 3:04 AM pelican has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 43 of 104 (448543)
01-13-2008 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
01-12-2008 11:02 AM


Re: Don't have to be good to be loved?
Hi Taz,
(B) God loves me unconditionally.
I wanted to expand on this point in your post.
As I mentioned in my earlier post I don't know where you got this mistaken idea.
God's love is conditional and has been since the first man willfully disobeyed Him. Even the first man's existence was conditional. Eat the fruit you die.
God's chosen people the children of Israel were told:
You do this and I will do that.
You don't obey I chastise.
History says when God's chosen people obeyed God blessed.
When God's chosen people disobeyed God punished.
God is a God of justice. vengeance is mine thus saith the Lord.
Don't get me wrong God is a God of love just not the kind of love people claim it to be.
We like to make God into what we want Him to be. That will never happen.
Unconditional love does exist.
As I said I have unconditional love for my God, my Church, and my wife. But the rest of the world no way. So that means I do not have unconditional love because I make exceptions.
Jesus Christ has unconditional love.
He loves everyone including the entire universe.
He left His throne in heaven and came down to earth and took a flesh body to live and be tempted as we are and to fulfill God the Fathers requirement for the sin of the first man which was passed upon all mankind to be forgiven.
Jesus who knew no sin came to die for the sins of the world including mankind.
He did not have to do that but He chose to do so.
He had a short ministry here on earth where He started His Church.
He was despised and afflicted.
He was sentenced to die on trumped up charges.
When they went to get him in the garden Peter cut off an ear from one of the men. Jesus replaced it.
While on the cross they spit upon Him mocked Him, laughed at Him and parted his clothes at the foot of the cross.
He suffered greatly on that cross that mankind could be reunited with God.
At any moment while on the cross He could have changed His mind and stepped off the cross but He did not. He loved us that much.
When His life's blood was fast flowing away He cried out "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
While Jesus was on that cross God the Father turned His back on His Son because He could not have my sin in His presence yours or anybody's.
That is unconditional love He gave Himself requiring nothing in return.
He says if you are heavy laden come to Him He will give you rest.
He says if you come to Him He will give you eternal life no strings attached.
He says He will not cast out any that come's unto Him.
He loved everybody equal and freely gave Himself for everybody.
Now His Father who gave His Son to die on that cross for the sins of the world being a God of justice says if you trust my Son you will have life eternal with Him.
He says if you do not trust His Son you will not see life but you will be cast into the lake of fire that burneth forever.
Now why would anybody think that a Father that gave His only begotten Son to die in such a manner for man making only one requirement for man to have eternal life be so loving and good when man says no way God, I don't believe you exist, Jesus is just a myth, and all the other reasons given for not receiving Jesus as personal saviour, that He would not cast that individual into the lake of fire.
God has offered you a pardon. It is free. Your sin debt has been paid. But if you reject that pardon you will burn in the lake of fire forever.
Unconditional love=Jesus loved me before I was born. He died for my sins before I was even thought of. He knew I was going to be disobedient, unthankful, unholy, sometimes a rotten scoundrel. In fact He knew every sin I would ever commit, all my faults and failures, and was still willing to pay my sin debt. Then He said all you have to do is receive eternal life. You can't do one thing to deserve it, only trust me.
Now if that is not unconditional love there is no such thing.
Folks I am going to be with Jesus when I die even though I deserve to be in hell.
Not because of anything I have ever done But because Jesus loved "ME"
All I had to do was receive the free gift God gave for me.
Jesus loves you, you, and you just as much as He loved me.
He died so no one would have to go to Hell.
If you go to Hell it is because you choose to do so.
It will not be God's fault so quit blaming God for your sins and your forefather's sin.
Step up and take responsibility for yourself.
A child of the King,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 11:02 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Taz, posted 01-13-2008 10:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 104 (448544)
01-13-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by pelican
01-13-2008 6:37 PM


Re: does unconditional love exist?
dameeva writes:
Unconditional love clearly is subjective and without clearly defined parameters.
Well, that's the point.
It seems subjective to every single person who gives or recieves it.
Nitpick: "E" before "i" when preceded by "c".
Your mistake proves to me that you do not love me unconditionally.
I believe it is too important an aspect of life to leave it as such.
You want to look for a way to make unconditional love objective rather than subjective?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 01-13-2008 6:37 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by pelican, posted 01-14-2008 7:12 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 45 of 104 (448548)
01-13-2008 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
01-13-2008 10:47 PM


Re: Don't have to be good to be loved?
ICANT writes:
If you go to Hell it is because you choose to do so.
Simple. All god has to do is undo hell and voila I can't choose to go to hell anymore. Same thing with children. We don't present them with sharp objects and they won't hurt themselves or others. Simple concept to understand.
The rest of your post is just a mishmash between random thoughts and christian self-righteous preaching.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2008 10:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2008 11:09 PM Taz has not replied

  
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