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Author Topic:   Why does God need to be worshipped?
neilymac
Junior Member (Idle past 5792 days)
Posts: 2
From: Bradford, UK
Joined: 05-19-2008


Message 1 of 64 (467027)
05-19-2008 7:09 AM


Hi,
First post here. Quite a simple question really.
Why does God need to be worshipped and why do people worship God?
Surely an all powerful and perfect being would not need us to worship them.
Isn't worship a man made concept created by egotistical rulers?

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 64 (467041)
05-19-2008 8:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 3 of 64 (467049)
05-19-2008 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by neilymac
05-19-2008 7:09 AM


neilymac writes:
Why does God need to be worshipped...
Because He was created in the image of our own tyrants.
...and why do people worship God?
Fear.
Isn't worship a man made concept created by egotistical rulers?
Ah, yes. Welcome to EvC.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 64 (467064)
05-19-2008 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by neilymac
05-19-2008 7:09 AM


Hi neilymac, welocme on board.
Anything that made people and demanded that they worship him or face the holy boot has to be a pretty vain narcissist.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits from the DSM4:
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance.
2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes.
So, there you have it. The xian god.

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 5 of 64 (467129)
05-19-2008 5:56 PM


I think the more general question is:
What could a being that is Infinite and perfect possibly gain from the actions of inferior beings that are imperfect and finite?
If a being stands to gain from receiving the attention or acceptance of finite creatures then this being must be limited and not infinite or perfect. An infinite, perfect, and autonomous being would contain within itself an infinite measure of happiness and contentment. To state otherwise implies that this being is limited. You cannot increase your position by adding to the infinite and you have nothing to gain by trying to do so. Ignoring Cantor's Cardinal sets, Infinity+1=Infinity.
Many of the postulates theologians offer regarding the relationship between God and Man are not consistent with the properties they like to assign to God, The even more formidable task is trying to reconcile the attributes of God with scripture. Emotions such as jealousy and sadness cannot be seen as consistent with an infinite and perfect being. One can certainly avoid the inconsistency by redefining the properties you assign to God, but doing so flies in the face of the Theological traditions of the three main monotheistic religions.
An infinite and perfect being can gain nothing from the worship, acceptance, or love offered by finite beings --a cup already filled to the brim will not take on any more water. It is also impossible to state without contradiction that an infinite and perfect being can gain anything by creating finite beings. That such a perfect being would be motivated to engage in such a creative act itself implies an existence that is less than infinite.
The corollary is also true: Finite beings stand much to gain from the infinite. In the case of Christianity, there is an infinite reward. There is much to gain by worship, both in appeasement and also a personal sense of connection to deity.
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 6 of 64 (467134)
05-19-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Grizz
05-19-2008 5:56 PM


Grizz writes:
An infinite, perfect, and autonomous being would contain within itself an infinite measure of happiness and contentment. To state otherwise implies that this being is limited.
I see this as a non sequitur. This logic also supports the following:
quote:
An infinite, perfect, and autonomous being would contain within itself an infinite measure of deceit and perverseness.
Or, more formulaicly:
quote:
An infinite, perfect, and autonomous being would contain within itself an infinite measure of _____________.
Grizz writes:
It is also impossible to state without contradiction that an infinite and perfect being can gain anything by creating finite beings.
To me, this is good evidence that He/She/It/Whatever did not make the world and us for His/Her/Its/Whatever's benefit, and that any religion or system of worship that is based upon this must postulate limits to God or its own falsehood (this is in accord with what you're suggesting).
Grizz writes:
That such a perfect being would be motivated to engage in such a creative act itself implies an existence that is less than infinite.
I always hesitate to discuss Mormon viewpoints to things here because nobody is really addressing them, but, since this thread offers the opportunity to hypothesize, I'll bite. The Mormon view is that earth life is a necessary step on the road to becoming a god. Therefore, God's purpose in creating the earth is not narcissistic, but benevolent: He wants to share the "good life" that He enjoys with us.
As for the "why" there: maybe He is infinitely lonely at the top.

I'm Thylacosmilus.
Darwin loves you.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 7 of 64 (467136)
05-19-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Grizz
05-19-2008 5:56 PM


Experience?
What could a being that is Infinite and perfect possibly gain from the actions of inferior beings that are imperfect and finite?
Experience?
Does omniscience preclude the need for actual experience?
Is it the same to "know" everything as to have experienced everything?
If not, then it would seem that the missing piece of the jigsaw for an omnipotent, omniscient being would be to use their omnipotence and omniscience to go about becoming "omniexperient".
Just a thought.
I'm just back from the pub so don't take anything I say at the moment too seriously

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 8 of 64 (467138)
05-19-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
05-19-2008 6:34 PM


Re: Experience?
To me, this is good evidence that He/She/It/Whatever did not make the world and us for His/Her/Its/Whatever's benefit, and that any religion or system of worship that is based upon this must postulate limits to God or its own falsehood (this is in accord with what you're suggesting).
But the original question as posed is, "why does God need worship?"
I was pointing out that an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect being would not need anything.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 22 by Blue Jay, posted 05-21-2008 1:51 PM Grizz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 9 of 64 (467139)
05-19-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
05-19-2008 6:34 PM


Re: Experience?
Experience?
Does omniscience preclude the need for actual experience?
Is it the same to "know" everything as to have experienced everything?
If not, then it would seem that the missing piece of the jigsaw for an omnipotent, omniscient being would be to use their omnipotence and omniscience to go about becoming "omniexperient".
Just a thought.
If a being is entirely self-autonomous,perfect and infinite, on what basis would it 'need' or 'want' any experiences of the kind you are discussing? Amusement, boredom, loneliness, or just for want of something to do?
Thre are problems with proposing an infinite perfect being. If you are going to then assign anthropomorphic emotions to such an infinite and perfect being then it must follow that it is infinitely and perfectly happy and content. It would not need or desire to do anything but sit like a bump on a log, being infinitely happy and content with its existence.

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 10 of 64 (467143)
05-19-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Grizz
05-19-2008 7:01 PM


Re: Experience?
I see this as a non sequitur. This logic also supports the following:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An infinite, perfect, and autonomous being would contain within itself an infinite measure of deceit and perverseness.
I see your point, but it is suggested that the Judea-Christian God is incapable of being deceitful, perverse, or engaging in things like lying etc. This itself presents a problem for omnipotence but ,without a doubt, the reply would be that God can engage in such things but chooses not to. I was really speaking within the context of the Judea-Christian deity.
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

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 Message 11 by Perdition, posted 05-19-2008 7:47 PM Grizz has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 11 of 64 (467144)
05-19-2008 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Grizz
05-19-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Experience?
The biggest problem with any sort of infinite God is that it ends in contradictions. Logically speaking, you can't have an Omnipotent being, let alone combining Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence, as the Judeo-Christian theology does.
The cliche question of whether God can create something that He can't lift, illustrates the inherent contradiction in an Omnipotent being. Adding the other infinite attributes only makes matters worse. The only way to try and worm around it is to say that the logic of this world doesn't need to transfer to the "spiritual realm" but I would guess an illogical or alogical God isn't something people want either.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Grizz, posted 05-19-2008 8:06 PM Perdition has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 12 of 64 (467147)
05-19-2008 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Perdition
05-19-2008 7:47 PM


Re: Experience?
The cliche question of whether God can create something that He can't lift, illustrates the inherent contradiction in an Omnipotent being. Adding the other infinite attributes only makes matters worse. The only way to try and worm around it is to say that the logic of this world doesn't need to transfer to the "spiritual realm" but I would guess an illogical or alogical God isn't something people want either.
I agree with your statement about omnipotence; however, most analytical philosophers in both camps consider the rock argument to be invalid. It would be similar to asking a mathematician who claimed to be all-knowing and all-powerful to create a set containing elements that are not part of the set. Or you can pose the question: "Can an omnipotent God cause himself to have never existed?" If something already exists, it cannot be said to have never existed.
Most philosophers see such arguments as an invalid use of categories.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Perdition, posted 05-19-2008 9:56 PM Grizz has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 13 of 64 (467161)
05-19-2008 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Grizz
05-19-2008 8:06 PM


Re: Experience?
That could be. But when you start saying things like "can do ANYTHING," it begs the question of whether you actually mean "can do anything logically possible," or "can do anything whether its logical or not." I don't see the comparison between a god making something and then not being able to lift it, or destroy it, or whatever with it, and a mathematician trying to make a set that contains numbers that aren't part of the set. The second is definitionally impossible, the first isn't. Can I make something I can't lift? Yes. Does that mean I have an "ability" that God doesn't?

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 64 (467166)
05-19-2008 10:47 PM


That's enough, people!
I want to see the opinion of "the other side", so please stop it.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

  
Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 15 of 64 (467170)
05-19-2008 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by neilymac
05-19-2008 7:09 AM


I think a decent god wouldn't need to be worshipped. Perhaps he would need to be worshipped if he wasn't all that decent? Maybe he deserves to be worshipped because he gave us the amazing gift of life? Could it be that having a god that needs to be worshipped helps keep people in line and acting the way certain people want them to? I'm an atheist so the last option seems most relevent in my mind.

This message is a reply to:
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